What Do You Think Is Out There?

[Amaris]

I recently began dabbling in Paganism, having been an atheist agnostic for the past 10 or so years, and a fundamentalist Christian for decades before that. My username, Amaris, I took on as my own whenever I "converted," and has become a part of that identity. I believe, and have since I was a child, that there is more to the universe, more to existence, than just what we can see and feel.

Even when I was an atheist agnostic, I never let go of the idea that some form of magick (with a 'k' to separate it from "magic," which is the art of illusion performed by people like David Copperfield, Penn & Teller, and so on). I believe in a Goddess (and have tentatively, on and off, for the past 20 years), and follow a number of rituals and practices when exploring my belief system.

I have searched through many religions (though not in adherence, just out of interest), seeing what other faiths used as their lens to view life, the universe, and everything, but it never really helps as much as discussing it with people who can more adequately explain how they feel about something, about how they see the environment around them. Feedback makes it closer, more connected.

I was hoping we could share those thoughts and experiences with one another.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I'm not a fundie, but I am a Christian, and (with all respect) I know my own yearning for what is "out there" will be satisfied, to the Nth degree, once I reach Heaven. I know it will be more than I could possibly imagine.

That being said: In THIS life, you know what I think is out there? The Yankees in the World Series, further seasons of Discovery, and really bitchin' breakfasts.

 

[Amaris]

I'm not a fundie, but I am a Christian, and (with all respect) I know my own yearning for what is "out there" will be satisfied, to the Nth degree, once I reach Heaven. I know it will be more than I could possibly imagine.

Okay, but what about here? What do you think is here? You're a Christian, so I would assume (and please correct me if I'm wrong) you believe there is an omnipotent, omniscient God who created the universe, and that this God, through His intervention, sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to save humanity from its descent into sin. Does that sound about right? If so, what brought you to this point? When did you realize this is what you believed? How you saw the universe around you?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

you believe there is an omnipotent, omniscient God who created the universe, and that this God, through His intervention, sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to save humanity from its descent into sin. Does that sound about right?

Nailed it.

If so, what brought you to this point? When did you realize this is what you believed? How you saw the universe around you?

My parents introduced me to the Bible. I read it, I considered it, and I came to believe in it. And I realized that I don't have to completely upend my life in order to accept what Jesus has done for me. I don't need to stop having fun or anything like that. All I need to do is realize...He's got this.

And also I recognize that I don't have to have all the answers. Just because I'm a Christian doesn't mean that all questions will be settled right now, that I won't ever have pain in my life, that I can't struggle with things or agonize over them, or anything like that. It's OK to wonder about things. God gave me a brain, why shouldn't I use it?

In the end, I take all the comfort in the fact that my questions WILL one day be answered...I mean, people ask me things like, how can God allow evil to exist in the universe? Well, I'll be sure and ask Him when the time comes.

 

[Amaris]

It does.



My parents introduced me to the Bible. I read it, I considered it, and I came to believe in it. I realized that I don't have to completely upend my life in order to accept what Jesus has done for me. All I need to do is realize...He's got this.

It sounds like it brings you great peace.

 

[Refuge]

I believe, and have since I was a child, that there is more to the universe, more to existence, than just what we can see and feel.

Obviously we have a corporal, biological, form. I just don't feel out personalities are the creation of chemical reactions in the brain. We share our humanity in body but our souls, spirit or essence is entirely unique. I do believe that what we are exists beyond our growth and even passing. For me this does take the form of Christianity though to be perfectly honest I do allow that the structure of religion can be misrepresented and that love should allow for evolving in society and its laws. That probably sounds like just believing the good bits of the Word but I do let my inner voice decide. Also I appreciate other aspects of spirituality that might seem contradictory to my faith. Won't say I follow my horoscope religiously but there are aspects of it so identifiable that it enhances more than takes away.

It's interesting the belief in magick. Is it that a spell focuses the power of one's mind to affect a result? The rituals involved harnessing this force? So much of spirituality is meditative, symbolic and involves ritual. Religious and pagan. It's no coincidence and would be nothing without belief.

 

[Amaris]

Obviously we have a corporal, biological, form. I just don't feel out personalities are the creation of chemical reactions in the brain. We share our humanity in body but our souls, spirit or essence is entirely unique. I do believe that what we are exists beyond our growth and even passing. For me this does take the form of Christianity though to be perfectly honest I do allow that the structure of religion can be misrepresented and that love should allow for evolving in society and its laws. That probably sounds like just believing the good bits of the Word but I do let my inner voice decide. Also I appreciate other aspects of spirituality that might seem contradictory to my faith. Won't say I follow my horoscope religiously but there are aspects of it so identifiable that it enhances more than takes away.

In short, some stones are worth looking under, where perhaps insights may be found. When I was a devout Christian, I didn't put much stock in horoscopes either, but I often couldn't help taking a look, just to see if I could glean something from it worth investigating.

It's interesting the belief in magick. Is it that a spell focuses the power of one's mind to affect a result? The rituals involved harnessing this force? So much of spirituality is meditative, symbolic and involves ritual. Religious and pagan. It's no coincidence and would be nothing without belief.

For me, magick is like ritualized meditation, yes. The spells I craft are meditations designed to elevate my own consciousness in an effort to better understand myself, and the environment in which I live.

 

[Amaris]

The meditation post reminded me of something I've been working on. I have been finding ways to meditate while taking care of my every day routine, since I don't often get to set aside large amounts of time for that meditation. I have begun to focus on a form of meditation that creates a constant connection between me and my Goddess. It lets me stay focused on my tasks, while also allowing for my thoughts, prayers, blessings, requests, and so on, to travel back and forth between Her and myself. I remember attempting something similar many, many years ago, with some success. It requires significantly more energy at first, but once I'm "in the zone" it becomes almost effortless. Any experience with that kind of meditation?

 

[Gary7]

There is logic to nature, when you look at it close enough, and high level enough. It's all about shifting to see the right perspectives.

After having grown up in an agnostic household, in my early 20's I became a Christian for a time during a difficult period, then found far too many holes and poor explanations to continue with it. There is no logic to the human authored religions. God is too humanly personified (of course, because people can't imagine anything else). It's one thing to have faith, but another to have blind faith. Blind faith will eventually get you into trouble, where human beings are concerned.

I would believe in the most compelling one of human authored religions if God really backed it up. It's far too convenient to waffle back and forth between God's will and the free will of humanity, in attempts to explain how things are. Especially where there's tremendous cruelty to the innocents, like the children.

In the simplest sense, if there was a creator deity watching over us, there would have been a better road map than a few ancient texts. But even still, if those texts supposedly inspired by the direct will of God were to be true, they'd be congruent to what humans discover with science. They are not. Take Genesis. The order of creation could've been easily explained in a way that would align with science while still being intelligible to the people of that day. The "order" of things clearly reflects the human's understanding. Of course the Earth would be created first, then the sun and the stars, as an ignorant human being would see things. All the while, the reverse is what happened. Had there been this congruity, it would be a kind of implicit message for us to truly know that a deity intentionally created us and is an avid overseer of us all... instead of us likely being the interplay of chaos and serendipity, some organic compounds conveyed by a comet that manage to work into something complex over eons.


But beyond all this... the fundamental question... is there something out there? Well yes, there certainly is. There is a mysterious order to nature. We can't truly understand it as we are. We're trapped in these frail fleeting bodies with limited brain capacity, stuck on a little world in a vast cosmos. Of course we can't understand it all. It's a far greater disparity than the cat analogy. That being the cat can't understand where the humans came from and the house it lives in. Simply not possible to explain the concept. So it lives its life with its petty little concerns up until the day it dies. We too are so limited. But... what of this amazing mental construct we form over the course of our lives? We gain all this knowledge, all this sensibility of life... and then it's just gone?

Nature shows us that everything is reconstituted. I would like to believe our lives cultivate some kind of energy that will be rejoined into the cosmos. But rather than it being a granular absorption with no trace of the former state, I would like it to be that consciousness goes onto a higher plane of existence. Maybe we don't... but I'd rather believe it and enjoy my life rather than feel like this is all one sad sick joke on sentience. Because in the end, if it truly is dust, then we won't know it. Perhaps if one so fervently refuses to believe in continuance, they won't... because the mind is that powerful. So, while it may not be logical, I choose to believe we continue on. And hope we get to know all the souls this Earth has generated for so many millennia.

 

[Mudd]

Just this, just now.

 

[rahullak]

What's out there is also in us. In order to connect up we have to lift ourselves to match up, at least part of the way. There's trouble and strife in the world, because of free will. If God did everything for us, there would not need to be an "us". That free will which we have oodles of in relation to any other living being, also means that we create things of destruction and destroy things of creation. That free will also gives us greater abilities provided we are able to connect up and seek it. I was an atheist once, not believing in the pantheon of Indian or foreign Gods. But now I know, there are.....beings/forces/things out there. Don't stop searching, and keep your feet on the ground. Science will guide you to the right path, as much as your own spirit.

 

[Amaris]

There is logic to nature, when you look at it close enough, and high level enough. It's all about shifting to see the right perspectives.

After having grown up in an agnostic household, in my early 20's I became a Christian for a time during a difficult period, then found far too many holes and poor explanations to continue with it. There is no logic to the human authored religions. God is too humanly personified (of course, because people can't imagine anything else). It's one thing to have faith, but another to have blind faith. Blind faith will eventually get you into trouble, where human beings are concerned.

I would believe in the most compelling one of human authored religions if God really backed it up. It's far too convenient to waffle back and forth between God's will and the free will of humanity, in attempts to explain how things are. Especially where there's tremendous cruelty to the innocents, like the children.

In the simplest sense, if there was a creator deity watching over us, there would have been a better road map than a few ancient texts. But even still, if those texts supposedly inspired by the direct will of God were to be true, they'd be congruent to what humans discover with science. They are not. Take Genesis. The order of creation could've been easily explained in a way that would align with science while still being intelligible to the people of that day. The "order" of things clearly reflects the human's understanding. Of course the Earth would be created first, then the sun and the stars, as an ignorant human being would see things. All the while, the reverse is what happened. Had there been this congruity, it would be a kind of implicit message for us to truly know that a deity intentionally created us and is an avid overseer of us all... instead of us likely being the interplay of chaos and serendipity, some organic compounds conveyed by a comet that manage to work into something complex over eons.


But beyond all this... the fundamental question... is there something out there? Well yes, there certainly is. There is a mysterious order to nature. We can't truly understand it as we are. We're trapped in these frail fleeting bodies with limited brain capacity, stuck on a little world in a vast cosmos. Of course we can't understand it all. It's a far greater disparity than the cat analogy. That being the cat can't understand where the humans came from and the house it lives in. Simply not possible to explain the concept. So it lives its life with its petty little concerns up until the day it dies. We too are so limited. But... what of this amazing mental construct we form over the course of our lives? We gain all this knowledge, all this sensibility of life... and then it's just gone?

Nature shows us that everything is reconstituted. I would like to believe our lives cultivate some kind of energy that will be rejoined into the cosmos. But rather than it being a granular absorption with no trace of the former state, I would like it to be that consciousness goes onto a higher plane of existence. Maybe we don't... but I'd rather believe it and enjoy my life rather than feel like this is all one sad sick joke on sentience. Because in the end, if it truly is dust, then we won't know it. Perhaps if one so fervently refuses to believe in continuance, they won't... because the mind is that powerful. So, while it may not be logical, I choose to believe we continue on. And hope we get to know all the souls this Earth has generated for so many millennia.

I think in terms like this from time to time. In the grand scheme of the religions I've studied, God/Gods always seem incredibly human. Part of it is because I do believe we create them in our image. I also believe we filter them through the lens of humanity, to make them relatable. For quite a long time, I also believed as you state above, that when we died, there was nothing but a release of heat back into the universe, and then decomposition. It bothered me immensely. Some people can say they're fine with being dead, because they were dead for billions of years and never noticed, but I never could accept that because, like you, I hated the idea of all the knowledge, experiences, mental and emotional connections made by each person would just dissipate and be lost forever. It felt like such a waste, and nothing short of a tragedy.

I'm not entirely certain where I stand on some kind of afterlife, at this point, but I would like to believe that death isn't the end. It doesn't have to be some kind of heavenly paradise, but I would like to know that my experiences, my thoughts, hopes, dreams, they're not completely lost.

What's out there is also in us. In order to connect up we have to lift ourselves to match up, at least part of the way. There's trouble and strife in the world, because of free will. If God did everything for us, there would not need to be an "us". That free will which we have oodles of in relation to any other living being, also means that we create things of destruction and destroy things of creation. That free will also gives us greater abilities provided we are able to connect up and seek it. I was an atheist once, not believing in the pantheon of Indian or foreign Gods. But now I know, there are.....beings/forces/things out there. Don't stop searching, and keep your feet on the ground. Science will guide you to the right path, as much as your own spirit.

I certainly agree with following the sciences. Like Sagan, I believe that science is a candle in the dark. It illuminates the world around us. At the same time, on a fundamental level, there is more. Maybe someday science will explain what it is, and how it works, but for now, I'm staking out my own claim, seeing what I can find, too.

 

[Balok's Decoy]

If I'm being really honest with myself, I think more than likely there's nothing out there. Everything is chaos and chance.

But I also dabble a little bit in magick and pagan ideas, particularly of the druid persuasion. I do think you can combine your will with symbolism and ritual to manipulate reality. I also like Alan Watts' stuff, and enjoy the idea that all of reality is just a collective imagination of existence -- kinda like a "thou art that" vision of the universe.

 

[Amaris]

If I'm being really honest with myself, I think more than likely there's nothing out there. Everything is chaos and chance.

But I also dabble a little bit in magick and pagan ideas, particularly of the druid persuasion. I do think you can combine your will with symbolism and ritual to manipulate reality. I also like Alan Watts' stuff, and enjoy the idea that all of reality is just a collective imagination of existence -- kinda like a "thou art that" vision of the universe.

It’s certainly intriguing enough to explore. My love of the Earth, of nature, of the stars, certainly fuels that desire to explore.

Some people might wonder why I just can’t stay in the box they believe that I fit in, but I can’t. I just can’t stay in that tiny little box.

 

[2takesfrakes]

I'm a devout Roman Catholic and ever shall I be -- especially in the Cultural sense. It's quite deeply ingrained in me. And yet ...

I've sometimes wondered why He created the Universe? What's this need for worship all about? Why even introduce any of this into His reality? It doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. Everyone knows how "... In the Beginning ..." there was God and there was Void. Then God created Light ... and this and that and the other. What if the truth was there is still just God and Void? Alright ... if God had created us separately and just kind of "watches over us," He still knows everything we're ever going to do, everything we'll ever experience. There's still no surprises in store for Him, where we're concerned and that -- to me, at least -- seems counterintuitive.

What if Life were, as "they" say, a stage, and we -- all people, everywhere -- were the characters. The characters, only. The actor playing all of these roles would be God, Himself. He's starring as Jesus. He's starring as Hitler. He's starring as the wealthy socialite as well as the downtrodden. He's born, innocent and unknowing, into a world he must be challenged and mystified by. He gets to investigate the mechanism of the Universe that made Humanity possible with a scientific mind to investigate how he made all of this possible. And in these characters he's playing, He genuinely gets to fall in love with somebody ... someone new to Him. Somebody who's Real. He's every animal, every plant, every virus, every star, planet and nebulae. And best of all, though He's made himself obedient to the Laws of Physics, He's opened the door to miracles and strange occurances and coincidences, allowing Him to alter the experiment, without revealing Himself to Himself ... as us. Faith in God might just accomplish that, on some level ... like some release valve. It allows us to channel into something greater ... and directs our lives. Not as a game, I wouldn't say, if any of this is even rational or likely, at all. It's not all in His mind, or a big joke to Him. It's more about defying loneliness and isolation on a level you and I could never comprehend ...

 

[BillJ]

...sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to save humanity from its descent into sin.

Looks around the planet... boy, he sure isn't doing a good job. I hope God isn't overpaying him.

 

[Amaris]

I'm a devout Roman Catholic and ever shall I be -- especially in the Cultural sense. It's quite deeply ingrained in me. And yet ...

I've sometimes wondered why He created the Universe? What's this need for worship all about? Why even introduce any of this into His reality? It doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. Everyone knows how "... In the Beginning ..." there was God and there was Void. Then God created Light ... and this and that and the other. What if the truth was there is still just God and Void? Alright ... if God had created us separately and just kind of "watches over us," He still knows everything we're ever going to do, everything we'll ever experience. There's still no surprises in store for Him, where we're concerned and that -- to me, at least -- seems counterintuitive.

What if Life were, as "they" say, a stage, and we -- all people, everywhere -- were the characters. The characters, only. The actor playing all of these roles would be God, Himself. He's starring as Jesus. He's starring as Hitler. He's starring as the wealthy socialite as well as the downtrodden. He's born, innocent and unknowing, into a world he must be challenged and mystified by. He gets to investigate the mechanism of the Universe that made Humanity possible with a scientific mind to investigate how he made all of this possible. And in these characters he's playing, He genuinely gets to fall in love with somebody ... someone new to Him. Somebody who's Real. He's every animal, every plant, every virus, every star, planet and nebulae. And best of all, though He's made himself obedient to the Laws of Physics, He's opened the door to miracles and strange occurances and coincidences, allowing Him to alter the experiment, without revealing Himself to Himself ... as us. Faith in God might just accomplish that, on some level ... like some release valve. It allows us to channel into something greater ... and directs our lives. Not as a game, I wouldn't say, if any of this is even rational or likely, at all. It's not all in His mind, or a big joke to Him. It's more about defying loneliness and isolation on a level you and I could never comprehend ...

I believe there is a passage in the Bible where God says that He is the author of both good and evil. That would reconcile with what you have said here.

Looks around the planet... boy, he sure isn't doing a good job. I hope God isn't overpaying him.

When I see all of the terrible things on this Earth, I take a page from Mr. Rogers and look for the helpers.

 

[BillJ]

When I see all of the terrible things on this Earth, I take a page from Mr. Rogers and look for the helpers.

That helps some. But, there is no way I believe any higher power is working against sin when I wake-up to news of a six year old beaten to death by his Dad over a cookie, while a neighbor cheered him on.

 

[Amaris]

That helps some. But, there is no way I believe any higher power is working against sin when I wake-up to news of a six year old beaten to death by his Dad over a cookie, while a neighbor cheered him on.

That truly is terrible. What we as a society should do is increase access to mental health services, to prevent such horrific cases like that from occurring.

 

[Balok's Decoy]

I think the concepts of good and evil are invented constructs. Which isn't to say that they're meaningless, only that there's no supreme judge of such things and there isn't something outside ourselves who's monitoring or involving itself in that imagined tug-of-war. We give "good" and "evil" meaning and definition. Which is fine because in actual practice it doesn't matter if there's something Out There that is keeping tabs on this stuff, because clearly it isn't making a difference one way or the other.