Spoilers Twice Upon a Time grading and discussion thread

[The Nth Doctor]

From the horse's mouth, the holder of the IP's rights. As I'm doing a spot of filling in the cracks at their request, which they asked me to do cos I'm the one who created the Brig's Granddad back in 1998...

Ah, that makes sense. I didn't know you created his granddad. Which book was that?

Series 11 is made of ten 50-minute episodes and there has been no announcement of a Xmas special. Meaning - if there isn't an announcement before it starts airing in the autumn - either there will be no Xmas Day DW, or they'll schedule the series broadcast in such a way as to ensure the series finale is on at Xmas,and thus not have to fork out extra money for an extra episode.

Right deductive reasoning. I knew those pieces but I hadn't put them all together. But hasn't that happened before, where the Christmas episode wasn't announced immediately in advance but we eventually got one anyways?

It would be a shame if this episode was the last one because Jodie Whittaker deserves to have one, but at least this one would be a good note to go out on.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

Series 11 is made of ten 50-minute episodes and there has been no announcement of a Xmas special. Meaning - if there isn't an announcement before it starts airing in the autumn - either there will be no Xmas Day DW, or they'll schedule the series broadcast in such a way as to ensure the series finale is on at Xmas,and thus not have to fork out extra money for an extra episode.

Is that call on Chibnall, or the BBC? Cause if its on Chibnall, I don't understand why. Why not have just a one-off adventure for Christmas? Wouldn't have to be festive, just something disconnected from the season-long arcs he may be bringing to the programme.

I hate to say this, but I can understand the less-and-less-and-it-sucks mentality, but... as a fan, it kinda does.

 

[Ethros]

Enjoyed it, but "the Doctor regenerates and then the Tardis crashes!- cue cliffhanger"
Yet again? Really? Come on.

 

[ATimson]

But hasn't that happened before, where the Christmas episode wasn't announced immediately in advance but we eventually got one anyways?

The obvious example is "The Christmas Invasion". However, they were able to squeeze it into the Series 2 recording blocks (using "Love & Monsters" to gain the necessary time with David & Billie). Depending on timing, that may not work here.

 

[starsuperion]

A lot of it reeks of someone who's just watched a handful of youtube clips where only a female companion is present and knee-jerked he's a sexist pig. Problem is if you actually watch Hartnell episodes he refers to male companions as dear boy, dear fellow, young fellow, and young man. The male equivalents of his supposed sexism. Heck. He even collectively refers to them as my dears. It's literally an old person talking to younger persons nothing more nothing less.

The "smacked bottom" threat to Bill made me cringe. Another BS moment based off a knee-jerk reaction to an out of context youtube clip from "The Dalek Invasion of Earth: World's End". There's a chain of events that leads to Hartnell to saying the original line to Susan. She is on a ladder to get a better view of where they've landed and ends up falling off it. In the process she ends up twisting her ankle and yanking the bridge the TARDIS is parked under on top of it. There's a short discussion between the Doctor and Ian on how to shift the debris in front of the TARDIS. Then Susan walks up and he scolds her for what she just did. We find out about her ankle and then he delivers the "smacked bottom" line. It's nothing more than a heated moment of a parent being so pissed off at their child for doing something so royally stupid they say "I oughta smack you for that". It has fuck all to do with her being female. If you're going to pitch a fit about the line surely it should be for threatening a child.

The weird female companions cleaning the TARDIS and the glass woman conversation bits come off as Moffat's usual trolling for pats on the back. This time for "I'm pointing out sexists". Which I find a bit rich coming from a man who once said "I shagged my way round television studios like a mechanical digger".



Now the Third Doctor. He had sexist tendencies. Jo Grant's introduction being one of them.

Oh I agree. The whole sexist thing was felt with in the Third Doctors era, as that was in the 70s, and there were additional women's movements playing out during that time. Feminist became a word then, used for the right reason, equality. Now, it's used for ANY perceived male agression and virtue signalling. As if 2017 males and females were stuck in an episode of Mad Men or something rubbish like that. I found that part of the special naff and vulgar. Although I did rewatch the ending a few times, I was laughing my ass off when the TARDIS threw Jodie out and took off. Funniest thing I've ever seen yet! Satisfying given I'm not watching seasons 11-13. Possibly there after as well. LOTR will be doing a series, approved by the Tolkien Estate, along with the Orville. I'll have my fantasy show, and sci fi, and 10 years of nuwho, and 40+ of classic to revell in and enjoy. If the new show stays away from the SJW virtue signalling, and over the top 1 dimensional characters, sexism, racism, and All those things which are already covered in all aspects of TV..out moral teachers..as if the populace needs constant pushing..and concentrate on actual stories. More exploration, less here is the Doctor let's go for girl power, bring down the patriarchy..I'll return and give it a chance. But I still say Jodie Whittaker was a mistake in casting.. Would,have preferred Tilda Swindon but she's expensive..there are other females who could have played the role. Problem is any objection is met with the charge of sexism. This attitude to attack other fans (automatically being called sexist) led to many, like myself to say fine, I'd rather not give it a chance or watch.

 

[JRoss]

Decent. Uncharacteristically restrained and non-indulgent storytelling from the Moff. It was nice to see First again. Only thing is that I wonder if that took too much focus from what should have been Capaldi's show. Also would have been fun to see Bradley regenerate into David Troughton. Also would have been nice if First had gotten a "flashback" regeneration with companions' floating heads.

Good to see what Rusty is up to.

Several elements felt very repetitive. The glass avatars were a lot like Tesselecta or Gangers. The folks taking testimony reminded me of both those folks who torture historical villains before the moment of their death and the Cyberman plot to create a fake afterlife. But if one erases some of their expectations regarding Moff's writing it becomes more enjoyable.

 

[Mark_Nguyen]

<quote>Whatever StarSuperion said</quote>

What's that, man? I don't think you've gotten your point across in the past few months. Seriously, drag everyone's forum experience down more while expressing your opinion. I don't think the rest of us here have had enough of you yet, or called you out enough, forum rules be damned. And I'm sure there are going to be plenty of new fans on this forum who'd love to read further repetitions. By all means, keep going.

Mark

 

[Mr Awe]

It was an enjoyable romp. Good but not great. I gave it a 4/5. The character moments are what made it while the plot was paper thin. I suppose for a Christmas special that's just fine, particularly when the events that triggered the regeneration already happened and we're just waiting for the other boot to drop in this one.

One thing I really loved was how they showed how the Doctor as changed over the centuries. He's not the same Time Lord as he used to be. I don't mean the sexists comments, which was both funny but forced. But things like how his reputation has grown, the Earth is Protected, the flashback sequence to other Doctors, etc. More subtle but funny things like, "you still call it a ship!" The TARDIS databanks were nearly empty for One, etc. Collectively, those have shown how far the character has come. He started out more as an observer but has become a participant on a grand scale, which mirrors what we've seen on TV.

A couple of minor nits. For the recreate Tenth Planet scenes, I wish they weren't so disjointed. I wasn't expecting a straight recreation but would've liked just a tad more and not the disjointed edits.

And, why were the past Doctors so indistinct in the flashback? I always enjoy those and trying to figure out the story, etc but they were so indistinct for some reason.

And, I wish Susan had somehow been involved. I suppose with such a light weight plot that would've been difficult . . .Monumental wasted though.

 

[Lonemagpie]

Ah, that makes sense. I didn't know you created his granddad. Which book was that?

Wages Of Sin, and he's been used in the DWM comics strip as well (by Alan Barnes, IIRC)

[QUOTE[
Right deductive reasoning. I knew those pieces but I hadn't put them all together. But hasn't that happened before, where the Christmas episode wasn't announced immediately in advance but we eventually got one anyways?
.[/QUOTE]

It has, so right now we don't know for certain.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

So do I. I mean it's understandable given that Victoria also had a Christmas special this year and Jenna probably didn't have a lot of time to film a cameo since she was likely busy with that, but I wish they could've interacted more and The Doctor could've seen Clara's TARDIS. They probably had no choice but to do the "memory" route.

Jenna Coleman's scene was the last thing filmed for the Christmas special, because, obviously, of her Victoria commitments.

 

[Professor Zoom]

Great fun. I always enjoy a multi Doc story. A nice wrap up and how great was Capaldi.

Also the Tardis didn’t throw the new Doctor out as a rejection, but to save her life. It WAS on fire.

 

[Steve Roby]

So, that was something. On the one hand, I did get all the feels. On the other, the story was a resounding meh, racing through any number of overly familiar Moffatisms.

One thing I've always said: there haven't been any bad Doctors, there have just been Doctors poorly served by the stories they were in. Capaldi could have been the best Doctor ever if he'd had better stories, so I'll miss him. It's a shame we didn't get more of Bill. And I never understood the Clara hate, so I'm glad that was wrapped up, too.

I have no idea what I'll think of the Chibnall era to come, but at least it should be different. It's about time. So to speak.

 

[Mage]

Certainly a lot better than last years Christmas special! Just a very fun episode, with a good heart. Not flawless. And although it was a pity that the Daleks had to be part of it in some way, it was actually kinda interesting.

My biggest let down was the winded speech at the end. I would have liked something a bit more simpler. Then again, 12 does like to monologue....

All in all, a fitting goodbye to a fantastic Doctor. The Capaldi seasons were not my favorites, but that had nothing to do with Capaldi himself. Moffat has (as with Sherlock) lost all sense of how to write good tv and just goes for fanservice and long and winded plots that, at the end, don't make sense anymore. It's a shame that one of the best Doctors was sometimes wasted with here, because of bad material.

 

[lurok]

As a very passing Who fan (basic knowledge of timeline, characters, etc.):
* Loved Bradley's performance (my main reason for watching as really liked his Hartnell in 'Adventures In Time And Space')
* Surprised the WWI Christmas armistice/carols storyline hadn't been used already
* Even though didn't watch Capaldi run, he's a good actor and liked this final outing

 

[Professor Zoom]

So, that was something. On the one hand, I did get all the feels. On the other, the story was a resounding meh, racing through any number of overly familiar Moffatisms.

One thing I've always said: there haven't been any bad Doctors, there have just been Doctors poorly served by the stories they were in. Capaldi could have been the best Doctor ever if he'd had better stories, so I'll miss him. It's a shame we didn't get more of Bill. And I never understood the Clara hate, so I'm glad that was wrapped up, too.

I have no idea what I'll think of the Chibnall era to come, but at least it should be different. It's about time. So to speak.

Re: Clara. me either. I thought she was infinitely more interesting with Capaldi when she wasn’t saddled with The Impossible Girl nonsense.

Her story went on maybe a series to long with 12, she has a great leaving story in that year’s Christmas story.

She’s a fine companion, especially with the origin of Timey Whimey McGuffin.

 

[MacLeod]

Re: Clara. me either. I thought she was infinitely more interesting with Capaldi when she wasn’t saddled with The Impossible Girl nonsense.

Her story went on maybe a series to long with 12, she has a great leaving story in that year’s Christmas story.

She’s a fine companion, especially with the origin of Timey Whimey McGuffin.

I would agree that Clara stayed perhaps a series too long and should have exited at that years Christmas special.

But it might just be me but I think Moffat has a hard time saying goodbye to his companions.

 

[Romulan_spy]

But it might just be me but I think Moffat has a hard time saying goodbye to his companions.

Ya think? LOL. Considering that Clara leaves the TARDIS, comes back, gets killed off in Face the Raven, gets brought back from the dead in "Hell Bent" only to be given another farewell, I would definitely say so.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Ya think? LOL. Considering that Clara leaves the TARDIS, comes back, gets killed off in Face the Raven, gets brought back from the dead in "Hell Bent" only to be given another farewell, I would definitely say so.

And it wasn't just her. Amy and Rory left the TARDIS properly, but then kept coming back because The Eleventh Doctor couldn't let go, although really it was Moffat who couldn't let go.

I don't get the hate against Clara either. The only thing I hated was the writing of Danny Pink. Not Samuel Anderson's fault by any measure, but the character was just horrible and the only time I didn't want to scream at him was his denouement in "Last Christmas."

 

[diankra]

Enjoyable episode, even if it is a bit lean on story. The ending doesn't make a lot of sense, Brigadier's Grandpa was supposed to have died there, that was kind of a key plot point, yet he lives instead and all is good. I assume he still gets killed in the War anyway?

While, the jokes about casual sexism in the past were rather amusing, I find it kind of odd they decided to pick their prejudices. Both the First Doctor and the Captain take make sexist comments about Bill and have reactions when they learn of her sexuality, yet neither of them seem to notice she's black, which to be fair isn't something that was ignored in 1914 or the 1960s. And although Doctor Who has made it a bit of a habit to have black people in unlikely roles in the past, it seemed out of place in this episode that made a point of showcasing other prejudices of the past.

What was with all the reused music in this episode? For the first time in the Capaldi era we hear All the Strange, Strange Creatures and I am the Doctor, which is weird given this is the finale. Also, as it now stands, the "Flavia theme" as it's become known has been used for all the modern Doctors except Matt Smith.

Clara's cameo seemed a bit meh, and really just more or less made the whole memory wipe thing even more pointless. It was nice to see Nardole back and have season 10's TARDIS team reunite for one last good-bye scene. Rusty the Good Dalek was fun if unnecessary.

And oh my cock, for Capaldi's pre-regeneration last words we get a two minute long Moffat Monologue, which to be honest, I zoned out during, and then after all was said and done I realized I missed Capaldi's final words, and re-watched the scene and had to force myself to pay attention. And even now, I still don't remember exactly. I've said it before, but Chibnall really needs to put a "No Monologues" rule in place and strictly enforce it.

I think the Lethbridge-Stewart thing is that his survival doesn't really change history (he already had sons, and he's AGLS's great uncle rather than his grandfather anyway, at the insistence of Haisman/Lincoln, and those publishing books based on their copyright).
But possibly uncle Archie told little Alasdair about his encounter with a time-travelling police boxes. Which might explain why the Colonel is unusually open to the notion that the TARDIS is a time ship, and also perhaps why the Doctor was unusually fast to tell him about it.

 

[Professor Zoom]

But it might just be me but I think Moffat has a hard time saying goodbye to his companions.

It's not just you.
I wonder if it's because the companions are the ones who can be the most original... the Doctor is always going to be the Doctor, the smartest, bravest, etc. But, a companion, there's more flexibility. I could see why that's attractive to a writer, especially, if you find a character who really works.

For me... Amy and Rory WELL outstayed their welcome.