Spoilers Twice Upon a Time grading and discussion thread

[starsuperion]

My biggest gripe is the writing of the dialogue for Bradley as a chovunist. Hartnell may have had his moments, but 1960s sensibilities? Come off it. The first Doctor learned more about 1960s sensibilities from Ian and Barbara then anyone else, given their portryal was decent and upstanding, there were some moments, but they usually weren't where the Doctor was able to witness, so by saying 1960s sensibilities, the only reason in writing the contrast between the Doctor and the 12th is outdated Meninism? Sexism? Come on! Did that really need to be put in there just before the first female appropriation of the 50 year traditionally male character is to happen? That's certainly dubious at best.

 

[sttngfan1701d]

I just disliked the greenscreen effect. I wish she'd have been there, physically, with Nardole and Billie.

So do I. I mean it's understandable given that Victoria also had a Christmas special this year and Jenna probably didn't have a lot of time to film a cameo since she was likely busy with that, but I wish they could've interacted more and The Doctor could've seen Clara's TARDIS. They probably had no choice but to do the "memory" route.

 

[Mr Awe]

I like to think the doctor's change to a woman shook up the the TARDIS


"Who is this new person? That's not the doctor! Commencing ejection procedures!"

I suppose the 13th doctor will have to convince the TARDIS that she's still the doctor later on

I hope that's not the reason and I hope she doesn't have to prove she's the Doctor. That would be tedious and not feel true.

 

[Mr Awe]

And hey, 1914 Christmas truce. Called it.

To be honest, I think a lot of us did. That and how the Captain was probably the Alistair's father.

 

[Mr Awe]

And yet, even though I knew Bill was returning, I deeply hoped that it would be Susan. For that particular moment, with The First Doctor standing there, her appearance made far more sense, even if Bill's role for the rest of the episode made more sense for The Twelfth Doctor. Still, it's a shame that Susan continues to get so very little acknowledgement (really just the photo on The Twelfth Doctor's desk at the university) after all these years.

I had the same thought momentarily as well. I too do not understand why Susan hasn't been brought back. It seems like there's so much story potential there.

 

[Lonemagpie]

It was obvious but still nice that Gatiss was Lethbridge Steward's father/grandfather.

Great Uncle, actually. (The intent was clearly grandfather, but the Lethbridge-Stewart IP rights' holders - Mrvyn Haisman's literary estate and Henry Lincoln - disagree, as the Brig's granddad already existed in other works, and Moffat hadn't asked...)

 

[Lonemagpie]

To be honest, I think a lot of us did. That and how the Captain was probably the Alistair's father.

The ages don't work out for that one- that would make the Brig in his 50s in Web Of Fear, and his 80s in Battlefield...

 

[Lonemagpie]

Yes, well, cool. That was fun. Again some moments of been there done that (me in real life I mean - "The universe generally isn't a fairytale. That's where we come in" - though more affecting for Lesley on the letting go/"I died a few hours ago and it's catching up" kind of stuff. Great to hear the Breaking The Wall track from Heaven Sent.

Loved the direction.,Bradley was good - though the First Doctor was never that sexst. The Second and Third were...

Oh, and of course, guess who has a job to do, pasting over some cracks tomorrow/next year... No rest for the wicked.

 

[Captain Crow]

My biggest gripe is the writing of the dialogue for Bradley as a chovunist. Hartnell may have had his moments, but 1960s sensibilities? Come off it. The first Doctor learned more about 1960s sensibilities from Ian and Barbara then anyone else, given their portryal was decent and upstanding, there were some moments, but they usually weren't where the Doctor was able to witness, so by saying 1960s sensibilities, the only reason in writing the contrast between the Doctor and the 12th is outdated Meninism? Sexism? Come on! Did that really need to be put in there just before the first female appropriation of the 50 year traditionally male character is to happen? That's certainly dubious at best.

A lot of it reeks of someone who's just watched a handful of youtube clips where only a female companion is present and knee-jerked he's a sexist pig. Problem is if you actually watch Hartnell episodes he refers to male companions as dear boy, dear fellow, young fellow, and young man. The male equivalents of his supposed sexism. Heck. He even collectively refers to them as my dears. It's literally an old person talking to younger persons nothing more nothing less.

The "smacked bottom" threat to Bill made me cringe. Another BS moment based off a knee-jerk reaction to an out of context youtube clip from "The Dalek Invasion of Earth: World's End". There's a chain of events that leads to Hartnell to saying the original line to Susan. She is on a ladder to get a better view of where they've landed and ends up falling off it. In the process she ends up twisting her ankle and yanking the bridge the TARDIS is parked under on top of it. There's a short discussion between the Doctor and Ian on how to shift the debris in front of the TARDIS. Then Susan walks up and he scolds her for what she just did. We find out about her ankle and then he delivers the "smacked bottom" line. It's nothing more than a heated moment of a parent being so pissed off at their child for doing something so royally stupid they say "I oughta smack you for that". It has fuck all to do with her being female. If you're going to pitch a fit about the line surely it should be for threatening a child.

The weird female companions cleaning the TARDIS and the glass woman conversation bits come off as Moffat's usual trolling for pats on the back. This time for "I'm pointing out sexists". Which I find a bit rich coming from a man who once said "I shagged my way round television studios like a mechanical digger".



Now the Third Doctor. He had sexist tendencies. Jo Grant's introduction being one of them.

 

[Lonemagpie]

It could also tie to the rumored plotline of series 11 that was being discussed on another thread in this forum. That's what I thought, immediately.

That said, since it was Chibnall who wrote that part, I wonder how much of it derived from the reception towards the casting of Whittaker. Maybe it really was Chibnall going meta with all those responses.

Or planning a stuck-on-Earth arc. (I hope not, as that increases the odds of making the stories *about* her being female)

 

[Orac Zen]

The first Christmas episode I've genuinely enjoyed.

Thing is, I can't really say why.

It's certainly not writing the First Doctor as a chauvinist arsehole, because he wasn't. It's certainly not the absurdly over-long, over-the-top speech 12 gives before he actually regenerates. Those bits were crap. The rest of it was simply enjoyable. Even Nardole wasn't as irritating as usual, and the Lethbridge-Stewart reference was (somehow) just about perfect.

I'll have to make time (no pun whatever intended) for another viewing, but on the whole first impressions were positive.

 

[Awesome Possum]

I enjoyed it, I'm looking forward to seeing what happens to the Doctor next.

 

[The Laughing Vulcan]

I found it fun, and watchable if derivative as hell. For me the episode felt like a mash-up of It's A Wonderful Life and A Christmas Carol, with the 1st in the George Bailey role, a little depressed and stubborn, not wanting to change, and the 12th as his angel, a personified example of what his continued existence means. At the same time the 12th is in the Scrooge role, determined to end his existence there and then, and with Papa Lethbridge Stewart as his ghost of X-Mas past, and Bill as his ghost of Christmas future there to change is his mind.

EDIT: I guess that means the Cloister bell was the sound of an angel getting his wings!

 

[Refuge]

She fell out of the Tardis?

Not a great start.

 

[Timewalker]

Looking forward to it so much! After a bit of a wait, we finally get some more Doctor Who. Still bitter sweet though since we will be saying goodbye to Capaldi. I wish he had stayed longer. He was a fantastic Doctor. Get the kleenex ready. I suspect we will be crying a lot by the end of this special.

I'll admit to feeling a little sad. I liked Capaldi, even though I couldn't stand Clara and the writing for the seasons I saw was monumentally stupid.

Clara was to 12 (despite starting with 11) as Amy was to 11 (his best friend) so I'm glad she was there at the end despite what some of the fan base may think of her.

At least she didn't take over the show. Hopefully this will be the absolute last time we ever see Clara.

...after seeing the companions return (which has become the standard for regenerations of late...

The companions returning for a brief moment in the regeneration stories dates back to Logopolis, when the Fourth Doctor had visions of his companions. It was quite poignant in the Fifth Doctor's regeneration, because the last thing he said was to call out Adric's name - he felt guilty about Adric's death right to the end.

So do I. I mean it's understandable given that Victoria also had a Christmas special this year and Jenna probably didn't have a lot of time to film a cameo since she was likely busy with that, but I wish they could've interacted more and The Doctor could've seen Clara's TARDIS. They probably had no choice but to do the "memory" route.

Gah. I'd hoped that Clara wouldn't be part of this, but accepted that she probably would be, since the Doctor sometimes says goodbye to his companions - even the ones he supposedly doesn't remember.

I'm glad she was only there briefly, and hopefully we never see her again.

As for Jenna Coleman herself, I loathe her in Doctor Who, but am enjoying her performance as Queen Victoria.

 

[Refuge]

Why is it just when you get used to a Doctor he goes?

 

[Allyn Gibson]

And hey, 1914 Christmas truce. Called it.

If this is, in fact, the last Christmas special, then if would've been a missed opportunity not to have gone there.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Great Uncle, actually. (The intent was clearly grandfather, but the Lethbridge-Stewart IP rights' holders - Mrvyn Haisman's literary estate and Henry Lincoln - disagree, as the Brig's granddad already existed in other works, and Moffat hadn't asked...)

Where did you read that?

If this is, in fact, the last Christmas special, then if would've been a missed opportunity not to have gone there.

Wait, what? Last Christmas special?

 

[Lonemagpie]

Where did you read that?

From the horse's mouth, the holder of the IP's rights. As I'm doing a spot of filling in the cracks at their request, which they asked me to do cos I'm the one who created the Brig's Granddad back in 1998...

Wait, what? Last Christmas special?

Series 11 is made of ten 50-minute episodes and there has been no announcement of a Xmas special. Meaning - if there isn't an announcement before it starts airing in the autumn - either there will be no Xmas Day DW, or they'll schedule the series broadcast in such a way as to ensure the series finale is on at Xmas,and thus not have to fork out extra money for an extra episode.

 

[Romulan_spy]

I'll admit to feeling a little sad. I liked Capaldi,

Me too. The writing was uneven. I do believe Capaldi deserved better. But Capaldi did a remarkable job with what he was given and had truly grown into the role perfectly. With better writing and if Capaldi had stayed on, I think he would have been one of the greats. He left just as he was becoming *my* doctor.