Let's talk about the elephant in the room, this series violates Roddenberry's vision big time

[Crazy Eddie]

It's not like she brought her own talent into the material she was given to work with, right?

The most talented actor in the world cannot turn a shitty role into something respectful, especially in television. A ridiculous minstrel character played by Peter Dinklage would still be a ridiculius minstrel character, which is the whole reason Peter Dinklage habitually refuses those kinds of roles. It's not because he's a bad actor, it's because the things that make a role demeaning are decided by people OTHER than the actor, people who have control over the final product and how it is edited as well.

As it stands, Jeri Ryan was given far better material to work with than Jennifer Lien, and arguably better than half the main cast of the show. if Braga wanted to, he could have told her to talk with a high pitched voice and play her character like something out of Jersey Shore, and she would have to choose to either do what she's told, quit her job, or try to convince him to back off on that shit. She chose option 3. Which was an option that apparently Beltran and Wang didn't have (although Mulgrew did, because she's Kate Fucking Mulgrew)

 

[cooleddie74]

Hey! What about the Coen Bros. The matrix is still a good movie. Tho admittedly the CGI needs updating.

The Wachowskis made the Matrix movies. The Coens made Fargo, The Big Lebowski and O Brother Where Art Thou? but I do get your point.

 

[Shaka Zulu]

But this isn't TNG. Hell, it's set prior to TOS, and I seem to recall Pike being pretty cranky back in the day. And Bones was positively irascible.

There's more to Star Trek than TNG. Me, I prefer the TOS approach, which was also Roddenberry's "vision," back in the day.

A vision that was more clear headed then the later one, which smacks of substance abuse.

I actually think that the crux of the entire issue for some people is summed up in this one sentence, quite honestly.

Which is why these people are using The Orville to beat up on Discovery.

The Star Trek Motion Picture novelization's depiction of how Roddenberry REALLY wanted 23rd century folk is HILARIOUS.

Worse than that-it was virtually incestuous, as it suggests that Winona Kirk was her son James's 'love instructor' (which I take to mean that she stripped to butt nekkidness, told Jim to do so, then showed him how to make love to a woman showing him what parts of him were to go into what parts of a woman! Imagine if a father did that to his teenage daughter?)

 

[Refuge]

No, but I suspect that if Braga had been sleeping with Garret Wang, Harry Kim would suddenly become one of the most interesting crewmen on the entire ship.


Sure, but television is a producer's medium. Much has been written about the fact that many of the OTHER leads had some of their best scenes cut and had to "tone down" their acting, with the understanding that if they showed out too much, they would just have to re-shoot the scene or have the scene cut altogether. Again, this is an echo of the "sonic wallpaper" thing: when the producers order you to do something boring, you don't really have a choice, because your performance isn't going to make it into the episode until the producer is satisfied.

When Jeri Ryan decides Seven of Nine should be more than just a bimbo in a catsuit, the person she has to convince that that's a good idea is the guy in the producer's chair. I suspect that conversation goes a lot more smoothly if said producer is also your boyfriend.

Actually it is almost common knowledge that Garret Wang was retained because of his image as well, having made People magazines 50 most beautiful. He's hardly a good example of an actor who didn't further his presence on a show because of his sexuality. His character may not have got rank beyond 'ensign' but Harry got story. I could name many, he just did not create the interest. Comparing two individuals working in a visual medium who might be 'hot' does not reduce what comes after, to the same thing.

The Seven of Nine character was promoted way before any suggestions of a relationship were a reason for Seven being featured. That ship was sailing way before the actress and the producer got together. She was already more than a bimbo in a catsuit, just as 'Harry' was still carrying having Garret portray him.

 

[Commishsleer]

Worse than that-it was virtually incestuous, as it suggests that Winona Kirk was her son James's 'love instructor' (which I take to mean that she stripped to butt nekkidness, told Jim to do so, then showed him how to make love to a woman showing him what parts of him were to go into what parts of a woman! Imagine if a father did that to his teenage daughter?)

I thought it said that Winona named her son after her loved instructor. Still it was creepy enough that Kirk knew of that anyway.

As for the ladies wearing skin-tight outfits. Everyone should be allowed to wear what they want without judgement or being attacked. My problem with Troi was not just that her boobs were hanging out (not that bad if she wasn't on duty) but that the camera was panning her chest in Season 1.
T'Pol, Seven, Kira, Troi (mostly) acted professionally, saved the day on many an occasion no matter what they were wearing

 

[cooleddie74]

The two times when T'Pol was most egregiously displayed as eye candy were the decon scene in "Broken Bow, Part II" and the pon farr subplot in "Bounty" which basically had a scantily-clad Jolene Blalock hanging off of and drooling all over John Billingsley for a good part of that episode. Had she been given more to do than just writhe in heat and moan that Phlox should mate with her to relieve her discomfort it wouldn't have been so bad, but that episode wasn't particularly kind to her character.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

The decon scenes in ENT were generally pretty equally exploitative of both the female and male cast members, IIRC.

 

[cooleddie74]

Especially Trip. But T'Pol got the worst of it.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The Wachowskis made the Matrix movies. The Coens made Fargo, The Big Lebowski and O Brother Where Art Thou? but I do get your point.

A Coen Brothers Matrix. Interesting.

 

[cooleddie74]

It'd be more watchable than either of the two sequels.

 

[Commishsleer]

The two times when T'Pol was most egregiously displayed as eye candy were the decon scene in "Broken Bow, Part II" and the pon farr subplot in "Bounty" which basically had a scantily-clad Jolene Blalock hanging off of and drooling all over John Billingsley for a good part of that episode. Had she been given more to do than just writhe in heat and moan that Phlox should mate with her to relieve her discomfort it wouldn't have been so bad, but that episode wasn't particularly kind to her character.

But probably in GRs vision...

 

[cooleddie74]

Gene's vision was blocked by his own sweat and pairs of bare legs.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Actually it is almost common knowledge that Garret Wang was retained because of his image as well, having made People magazines 50 most beautiful. He's hardly a good example of an actor who didn't further his presence on a show because of his sexuality...

That's kinda what I mean. Garret Wang was just a pretty face in the same way as Jeri Ryan initially was. But he wound up playing a highly forgettable and completely replaceable character whose background, development and personality are all but nonexistent. Which is literally what I meant when I said that if Garret Wang had been sleeping with Braga instead of Ryan, Harry Kim probably would have gotten way better lines and a lot more screen time.

 

[oberth]

That's kinda what I mean. Garret Wang was just a pretty face in the same way as Jeri Ryan initially was. But he wound up playing a highly forgettable and completely replaceable character whose background, development and personality are all but nonexistent. Which is literally what I meant when I said that if Garret Wang had been sleeping with Braga instead of Ryan, Harry Kim probably would have gotten way better lines and a lot more screen time.

... and lots of flak from the american religious right (if they ever found out)

 

[Refuge]

Garret Wang could have fucked the universe and his acting ability would have translated whatever script he got exactly the same way.

 

[WraithDukat]

The most talented actor in the world cannot turn a shitty role into something respectful, especially in television. A ridiculous minstrel character played by Peter Dinklage would still be a ridiculius minstrel character, which is the whole reason Peter Dinklage habitually refuses those kinds of roles. It's not because he's a bad actor, it's because the things that make a role demeaning are decided by people OTHER than the actor, people who have control over the final product and how it is edited as well.

As it stands, Jeri Ryan was given far better material to work with than Jennifer Lien, and arguably better than half the main cast of the show. if Braga wanted to, he could have told her to talk with a high pitched voice and play her character like something out of Jersey Shore, and she would have to choose to either do what she's told, quit her job, or try to convince him to back off on that shit. She chose option 3. Which was an option that apparently Beltran and Wang didn't have (although Mulgrew did, because she's Kate Fucking Mulgrew)

There are no small roles only small actors (apparently).

 

[Crazy Eddie]

There are no small roles only small actors (apparently).

In the case of Peter Dinklage, LITERALLY.

But there's a tremendous difference between a small role and a degrading one.

 

[cooleddie74]

Garrett Wang is one of the nicest cast members of any Trek series and extremely giving and generous to the fans. It's probably hard to find a nicer and more friendly Trek actor to interact with in a convention setting. That said, the poor guy was probably the worst actor in the entire lead cast of his show and that arguably includes Jennifer Lien.

 

[Refuge]

Garrett Wang is one of the nicest cast members of any Trek series and extremely giving and generous to the fans. It's probably hard to find a nicer and more friendly Trek actor to interact with in a convention setting. That said, the poor guy was probably the worst actor in the entire lead cast of his show and that arguably includes Jennifer Lien.

You know to be fair he is not the worst actor in all of Trek. HALF of those in TOS were actually shit actors. Nichelle Nichols, George Takei, Walter Koenig, Majel Barrett. Entirely dreadful. Denise Crosby (TNG)... make it stop! Frankly I'm throwing Avery Brooks out there too. Wooden dreadful acting.

 

[Satron]

You know to be fair he is not the worst actor in all of Trek. HALF of those in TOS were actually shit actors. Nichelle Nichols, George Takei, Walter Koenig, Majel Barrett. Entirely dreadful. Denise Crosby (TNG)... make it stop! Frankly I'm throwing Avery Brooks out there too. Wooden dreadful acting.

Brooks is pretty bad. But his character is compelling enough to mitigate his limitations.