Sick of War, want more Chick Exploration Fun

[Cadet Barclay]

Never liked war in any Trek series, but watching youtube clips of STDS9 Dominion Wars, I suddenly realized I can no longer watch Trek if endless war and CGI battles (with explosion sounds in vacuum of space) is all Trek offers these days.

Gene's Hopeful Vision was that we evolve to a Colorblind Egalitarian Feminist Society of Enlightenment, Liberty, Equality, Fraternity, with the Federation as a new United Nations that drives extinct socioeconomic injustice, war, poverty, hunger and disease. Why not?

Most TOS episodes have some moral revelation preached by Tiberius in last act, followed by some Spock-McCoy joke. Most STNG episodes have plausible science, real exploration, stars going nova, dilithium crystal hassles, new life forms, and my favorite male character: Q was not a warmonger, but a Loki Trickster revealing wonders of the universe for human destiny.

7 of 9, T'pol, Ezri Dax were my favorites as I never tire of watching and listening to them. How about more Space Babes? Why not?

War is a video game for teen boys, and inherently sexist: Imagine Trek Galaxy dominated by women: How much war would Chick Admirals launch against other species? None. War is a male thing. A Chick Galaxy is a Peaceful Galaxy. Nietzsche says "War is a Winter or Sleep for Culture." And also a sleep for science, exploration, justice, feminism, progress, human destiny.

Do sci fi story plots matter? Yes. Joseph Campbell reminds us that our own sense of self, sense of meaning, sense of destiny, is determined by the stories we tell ourselves. Mythology matters. Trek transcends entertainment. Gene's Hopeful Vision of Human Destiny is being warped by violent video game plots marketed to teen boys.

Gene based Trek on 1770's Voyages of Captain James Cook: Best parts of those voyages were the flora and fauna discovered by HMS Endeavour Science Officer Joseph Banks and the paintings of his brilliant artist Sydney Parkinson. Best parts were observing the Transit of Venus in Tahiti, Cook being first white man to map Antarctica, discovery of new native folk on every island and continent, discovery of Hawaii, Endeavour's shipwreck on Great Barrier Reef, stranding them in Australia, a whole new galaxy of natives and animals. Worst parts were Cook blasting cannon balls into native villages in Tahiti, New Zealand and Hawaii, as punishment for petty theft and the total failure of Race Relations, which soon caused his own death at age 50 when Hawaiians surrounded him and, to quote Hunter Thompson, "diced him up like pineapple."

I cannot watch any more CGI space battles and explosions making noise in vacuum of space.... Teen boys say peaceful stuff is boring, but I say STDS9 Dominion War CGI battles are boring and unwatchable. All the new Trek films and series are tedious unwatchable warmonger bull, violent video games for teen boys.

Nimoy insisted he kill off Spock, if war was all Trek did. He agreed to return from the dead, so long as the next Trek movie was about humpback whales in San Francisco....

If war is the only thing humans will do in Space, then we deserve to go extinct, or get absorbed by the Borg. War is so boring. Isn't there anything else to do in the Universe?

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

Never liked war in any Trek series, but watching youtube clips of STDS9 Dominion Wars, I suddenly realized I can no longer watch Trek if endless war and CGI battles (with explosion sounds in vacuum of space) is all Trek offers these days.

If you watch whole episodes of the Dominion War you'll see that there is more than just space battles. The DS9 characters are some of the best in Trek and face war out of a sense of duty, to keep others safe and protect their way of life, rather than wanting to fight and kill. Trek also isn't the only sci-fi show guilty of explosions in space, pretty much every one does it.

Most TOS episodes have some moral revelation preached by Tiberius in last act, followed by some Spock-McCoy joke. Most STNG episodes have plausible science, real exploration, stars going nova, dilithium crystal hassles, new life forms, and my favorite male character: Q was not a warmonger, but a Loki Trickster revealing wonders of the universe for human destiny.

I'm due a rewatch of TNG to refresh my memory of the series, but a lot of their science is technobabble, their actual time spent exploring was somewhat limited, they never witnessed any stars going nova, issues with dilithum crystals weren't a thing, and Q by his very actions could be seen as a 'malevolent' force, toying with lower life-forms for his own amusement (not to mention the later sexual harassment of Janeway).

7 of 9, T'pol, Ezri Dax were my favorites as I never tire of watching and listening to them. How about more Space Babes? Why not?

"Space Babes" that's a really 'feminist' standpoint. How about a well-rounded, compelling female character who wears the same standard uniform as everyone else and who isn't just there to be a pair of boobs in a catsuit.

War is a video game for teen boys, and inherently sexist: Imagine Trek Galaxy dominated by women: How much war would Chick Admirals launch against other species? None. War is a male thing. A Chick Galaxy is a Peaceful Galaxy. Nietzsche says "War is a Winter or Sleep for Culture." And also a sleep for science, exploration, justice, feminism, progress, human destiny.

You need to brush up on some history, there are plenty of women who have lead armies or been in charge of countries during wars and battles (Boudicca, Joan of Arc, Queen Elizabeth I, to name a few).

Trek transcends entertainment. Gene's Hopeful Vision of Human Destiny is being warped by violent video game plots marketed to teen boys.

Trek, like most things in life, is geared towards making money. Whilst more character driven stories and devices would be great to see, viewers want action and adventure, studios are more likely to give the go ahead to something that is a spectacle to watch and not care much if there is an actual plot behind it to back it up.

All the new Trek films and series are tedious unwatchable warmonger bull, violent video games for teen boys.

NuTrek and STD are dreadful.

If war is the only thing humans will do in Space, then we deserve to go extinct, or get absorbed by the Borg. War is so boring. Isn't there anything else to do in the Universe?

Without having alien races to study there is no way to know this. But it would be logical to assume that the quest to find sources of fresh drinking water, fertile land to plant crops and raise livestock, seeking suitable mates to procreate, minerals and materials to build with, fuel for heat, etc. would lead other species to fight over them, depending on their availability or perceived value.

 

[O_Kav]

Well, if you're concerned about misogyny, a good place to start is by not using terms with sexist overtones like "Babe".

I don't think the whole point of Feminism is to tell us how Women are inherently more moral than Men when it comes to situations like War. The point is, Women are Humans too and they commit mistakes like any other Human does. They have to give up idealism and compromise when they need to survive like every single person does. Vilifying women is the same thing as sanctifying them, it's pure male chauvinism.

Feminism generally heavily criticizes gender roles too. These roles are problematic because they tell Women they can't take on arms to defend themselves because that's a "Men's thing". Not all wars are immoral because some wars don't give any options for the people having their way of life being attacked. Some wars are defensive.

Think, for example, of the Catalan women defending their homes from the fascist armies of the Falangistas, the Soviet women who rose up against the Nazis that devastated their lands, the partisan women who fought against Mussolini or even the Women Protection Units who are out there protecting the Kurdish people against ISIL. Are these Women immoral because they took part in a war ? Obviously not.

I think it's a big exaggeration to imply Star Trek has been more about War than Exploration "lately". The Dominion War begins after Season Five, Voyager isn't about War, the Xindi War limits itself to one season and we just had one Season of DISCO so far, we don't even know if the Klingon War will continue in Season 2. None of the recent Movies were about War either.

Star Trek can't stop talking about War because it can't pretend War doesn't exist on our world. Not even TOS avoided talking about war. ST shouldn't be about escapism, quite the contrary. It should be a heavy reminder of the bad things we Humans do today. If it's necessary to sacrifice a little bit of the Canon and to introduce new narrative methods in order to do that, so be it.

See The Cloud Minders for example. It's just un-Trek-y how Ardana can be a Federation world while it keeps a Caste Society with people in horrible conditions working on those mines. The Telecast was horrible because the resolution of the story was nothing like David Gerrold wanted. Would I have preferred they never actually did The Cloud Minders because it wasn't Star Trek enough ? Of course not. Even with its flaws it's an essential Trek episode.

 

[WraithDukat]

War is a male thing?? Go to your local town centre late on a Saturday night and see if you still believe that. That's a very naive thing to say.

 

[MacLeod]

Many Star Trek episodes have explosions in space some CGI some practical effects, even episodes which aren't about a War as such as for sound in space I think you'll find most films/episodes set in space do it as well.

In war there are generally two types of wat a war of agression and a war of defense, the UFP generally tries to do everthing in it's power to avoid war so rarely fires the first shot so most of wars seen in St might fall under the later a war of defense. Not everyone out there might believe in the same things your side does and will try and take them away through fiorce if need be. Does one not have a right to defend themselves?

As for Women not leading armies/starting wars I suspect they are far more than you realise, it's just that they get little to no mention. Why is that?

Also war is not a sleep for science, whilst it might not be great to admit it war can be a great driver for scientific innovation, look at WWII and the lead upto to how much technology came out of that war, Radar, Sonar, Computers, Rocketry to name but a few. Sure those technologies would have eventually come but war accerated their development.

BTW OP you don't need all the other adjectavies such as colourblind, femenist etc.. Eqalitarian is the only one you need as it is basically everyone is equal. I would also second what other people have said about using terms such as babe and chick to describe members of the female gender.

Thouogh OP if Cook was the first "white" man to map Antartica that sort of implies there was someone before him who mapped it before him who wasn't either white, a man or both so what were they called? If there was no one else before him surely the adjective white is not needed and you could even change it to person to make it more gender nuetral.

But anyway welcome to the forums.

 

[Relayer1]

There's an awful lot of defending DS9 I could do (I'm a 'Niner') and there was certainly a hell of a lot more to it than a boys-own war story, but others are more capable.

What I will point out is that after so many seasons of it, there are those of us that are heartily sick of exploration and stand alone planet of the week stories.

It's the political stuff, not just (or even not mainly) war that I loved about DS9.

 

[BillJ]

It's the political stuff...

One of the reasons I tuned out of DS9 during its initial run. It put me to sleep. Other shows did it better.

 

[Relayer1]

One of the reasons I tuned out of DS9 during its initial run. It put me to sleep. Other shows did it better.

Horses for courses - everyone's different. I'm probably not in the majority by saying my favourite character was Garak...

 

[Relayer1]

And I dislike 'chick' as well as 'babe'.

 

[WraithDukat]

Horses for courses - everyone's different. I'm probably not in the majority by saying my favourite character was Garak...

The non SF characters were definitely the most interesting.

 

[at Quark's]

Horses for courses - everyone's different. I'm probably not in the majority by saying my favourite character was Garak...

Well... as long as you don't say Lwaxana was your favourite character ....

 

[Relayer1]

Well... as long as you don't say Lwaxana was your favourite character ....

Nooo...

Was very fond of Kira, Miles and Bashir too. Sisko grew on me. Loved Vic...pretty much everyone really !

 

[Shawnster]

War is a male thing?? Go to your local town centre late on a Saturday night and see if you still believe that. That's a very naive thing to say.

There are regular Saturday night conflicts in the center of your town?

 

[WraithDukat]

There are regular Saturday night conflicts in the center of your town?

Yeah, but it's a night out hub for miles around. You can guarantee there will be trouble somewhere, it's women doing it quite often.

 

[The Old Mixer]

We close threads when they get derailed too far. Here we have a case where the OP not only derails his own thread, but does it in the thread title itself! I'm inclined to leave this open and let other posters continue to debate the points made, since the "space babe" angle isn't that big a part of the original post...but will defer to my co-mod if he thinks this should just be shut down.

 

[psCargile]

Star Trek: Barbarella?

I'm listening.

 

[1001001]

Yeah, "Chicks" and "Space Babes" are not great ways to introduce yourself to the board.

Let's keep a close eye on this one.

OT: My son and I are doing a rewatch of DS9 right now. I haven't watched it since its original run (he's never seen it).

We're in the middle of Season 3. It's not as bad as I remember. But the big arc is just getting started. I was really noticing last night that the color scheme on DS9 is awful. Everything is dull, grey/beige/tan. Joyless.

Anyway, I like all versions of Star Trek. Maybe I'm not discerning enough, but it's just TV. I like them all, so I win.

 

[Forbin]

Point of order: War is often a driver of science and technological advancement, not a hindrance. Take airplanes:
The airplane was barely 10 years old when WWI started, and still spindly collections of sticks held together by wires with coughing little engines needing gentle treatment. 25 years and two wars later, we had 2000-horsepower, stressed-skin metal monoplanes, turbojets and rocket planes. Military needs continued to drive aircraft advancement thru the Cold War. All that trickled down into civilian markets. War may not be good for a lot of things, but it's always been great for science and technology.

 

[Doom Shepherd]

"Gene's Vision" Detected.
FIRING MAIN CANNON.

 

[at Quark's]

Point of order: War is often a driver of science and technological advancement, not a hindrance.

I think what it really shows is what we are capable of if society really wants to/needs to, and that it is kind of sad that usually war will be the only circumstance which will bring that mindset to achieve the hitherto impossible up in society. Exceptions exist but they are rare. For example the space race, and even that was a kind of 'war'.