Don't bother me with facts-my mind is made up!
so the producers and writers said that discovery will lead into TOS (60's aesthetics and all)...
- Thread starter crashchaos
- Start date
Quote of the day.
The idea of disposing of a dead body as "an empty shell" was purely a TNG contrivance, and has nothing to do with TOS.
What we know for sure from the 23rd century, before the TNG days, is that Klingons practiced mummification, per Spock's quiz in TVH. Preserving a body in such a reverential and meticulous fashion happens to be the polar opposite of throwing it out with the trash. So when T'Kuvma and company went to all that effort to preserve their dead, it was actually perfectly in line with pre-TNG Klingon cultural habits.
If anything, it was really TNG that broke continuity in this matter, definitely not STDSC.
Kor
Or, and I know this might sound crazy but hear me out, what if there are actually multiple different Klingon cultures, or at least interpretations of the same general idea. And one specific group thinks the body is just an empty shell and another doesn't.
Do the Klingon house reps we see are inclusive of all Klingons around 2256?
It's a big enough problem to confront producers with the issues relating to reconciling technological marvels seen in the show as mentioned here:
https://trekmovie.com/2017/10/09/pr...-will-address-apparent-deviations-from-canon/
They don't show it but imply it. It was a quote in response to what you said about star trek never specifically stating that the sport drive was never used before. Yeah maybe they silenced everyone that knows about it somehow or it's just an alternate reality.
right plus when the Duras's sisters threatened to eat Garak's tongue.
I had to go back and find the dialogue since I was probably half sleeping during the klingon dialogue subtitle conversation (another canon deviation)
"you had no such outrage when you ate its captain"
"I saw your smile when you picked the meat from her smooth skull"
They've never ate a whole person before just the heart and a threat to eat the tongue. I wouldn't think starving people would smile when they eat other people.
But they did not suggest other segments of Klingon society disapproving of their actions as being so different either.
ehh TAS and "definitely a known fact" don't go well together. It's about as well known a fact that there's a 100 foot tall clone of Spock out there too.
incorrect, they were just hanging on the edge of sensor range there
But they would have used cloaking technology if their intention was to remain unnoticed. This sample ship would suggest that they do not possess the technology yet.
There could be but we know there are supposed to be reasons they should suspect the klingons. They're enemies with the klingons and the klingons allegedly have cloaking technology in this timeline as shown in the federation/klingon battle of the binary stars.
In "Day of the Dove" they had to do it from the transporter room. Spock had to do the computations and Scotty had his doubts that it would work. Kirk describes it as "possible". Whereas Lorca and Burnham just called for the computer to do it like it's no big deal like the're in the 24th century or later. Something rarely done should be rarely seen as well which was the case until Star Trek Discovery. It might have been more than twice I'd have to go back and look. I think Harry Mudd sent Lorca to the brig with the wave of his hand.
I'm not assuming that it doesn't exist because it's never been shown before. But it's statistically unlikely that all of this advanced technology was isolated from all of canon this whole time until right now and all at once. In statistics there would be a confidence interval associated with the samples of trek technology we have seen so far which would show that in all of canon we should have seen some of this technology before this series. In fact the opposite is true. We rarely see anything like the technology shown on TOS.
They also said Sulu doesn't look anything like his portrait at starfleet headquarters because holographic imaging resolution was less accurate. A few flying dots in the air is a lot different than having a holographic interface that they can pull out of the interface and manipulate with their hands. It's a slippery slope to just cherry pick something even remotely like it, claim if it's reasonable to have something more advanced than what it's shown in that cherry pick then claim it's common place after that.
But you'd think they would have shown the holographic interfaces in one of the hundreds of episodes from the TOS and TNG era somewhere. Given such a large sample of episodes it's statistically unlikely that we would have not been exposed to it before Star Trek Discovery. They have it as common place where everything is high tech and fancy looking. It was their choice to have this take place before Kirk. They could have had it take place in post-TNG then there would be no in-universe technological limitation issues.
But if we were watching Sliders and they jumped into a world with advanced tech, not a big deal there. That's why alternate dimensions makes more sense.
Say, that's a good point! Maybe after Archer acquired this tech from Daniels, Starfleet was able to reverse engineer some of it, but later had to give it up when the Temporal Prime Directive came into play. (Yes, I'm kidding. Maybe.)
Yeah it's possible. That's the first thing I suggested in the "where did all the future tech come from" thread. This would mean that the temporal cold war diverged the timeline away from the TOS and TNG era we are familiar with. According to VOY "Relativity" even when they "fix" the timeline it's not perfectly fixed:
DUCANE: Incursion factor point zero zero three six. It's better than I expected.
But Spock's reasoning that it cannot be interacted with is that it's a projection. They also never use the word hologram in the entire series. They say projection or illusion
Yes but it's really unlikely given how many non-occurrences we have been shown so far. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confidence_interval The more non-occurrences we see the more confident we can be that they don't wear TOS uniforms in discovery's universe.
Yes that's the "going to warp" effect that zar pointed out earlier too. But what we're seeing in Discovery is what it looked like when they were at warp.
They don't?
Oops. I guess STII and STIII-IV are not in the same timeline?
That's true. An effect from the genesis planet where we see it change Spock's appearance as well.
They call it an assignment patch right on startrek.com too http://www.startrek.com/article/starfleet-insignia-explained
Because you asked for the evidence. I focused and responded to all of the points multiple times now but you couldn't help but claim that I didn't anyway.
There in-story canon proof that alternate timelines, alternate realities, & parallel universes go hand and hand with "continuity issues" within those stories. For that reason it's reasonable to suspect that alternate timelines, alternate realities, & parallel universes could be responsible for the continuity issues seen in Discovery.
Yer nuts!
Yer nuts!
Right, because...you know...I'm sure 8 billion Klingons all follow the exact same belief systems and have the same morales and ethics.
Just like here on Earth.
It's a big enough problem to confront producers with the issues relating to reconciling technological marvels seen in the show as mentioned here:
https://trekmovie.com/2017/10/09/pr...-will-address-apparent-deviations-from-canon/
They don't show it but imply it. It was a quote in response to what you said about star trek never specifically stating that the sport drive was never used before. Yeah maybe they silenced everyone that knows about it somehow or it's just an alternate reality.
right plus when the Duras's sisters threatened to eat Garak's tongue.
I had to go back and find the dialogue since I was probably half sleeping during the klingon dialogue subtitle conversation (another canon deviation)
"you had no such outrage when you ate its captain"
"I saw your smile when you picked the meat from her smooth skull"
They've never ate a whole person before just the heart and a threat to eat the tongue. I wouldn't think starving people would smile when they eat other people.
But they did not suggest other segments of Klingon society disapproving of their actions as being so different either.
ehh TAS and "definitely a known fact" don't go well together. It's about as well known a fact that there's a 100 foot tall clone of Spock out there too.
incorrect, they were just hanging on the edge of sensor range there
But they would have used cloaking technology if their intention was to remain unnoticed. This sample ship would suggest that they do not possess the technology yet.
There could be but we know there are supposed to be reasons they should suspect the klingons. They're enemies with the klingons and the klingons allegedly have cloaking technology in this timeline as shown in the federation/klingon battle of the binary stars.
In "Day of the Dove" they had to do it from the transporter room. Spock had to do the computations and Scotty had his doubts that it would work. Kirk describes it as "possible". Whereas Lorca and Burnham just called for the computer to do it like it's no big deal like the're in the 24th century or later. Something rarely done should be rarely seen as well which was the case until Star Trek Discovery. It might have been more than twice I'd have to go back and look. I think Harry Mudd sent Lorca to the brig with the wave of his hand.
I'm not assuming that it doesn't exist because it's never been shown before. But it's statistically unlikely that all of this advanced technology was isolated from all of canon this whole time until right now and all at once. In statistics there would be a confidence interval associated with the samples of trek technology we have seen so far which would show that in all of canon we should have seen some of this technology before this series. In fact the opposite is true. We rarely see anything like the technology shown on TOS.
They also said Sulu doesn't look anything like his portrait at starfleet headquarters because holographic imaging resolution was less accurate. A few flying dots in the air is a lot different than having a holographic interface that they can pull out of the interface and manipulate with their hands. It's a slippery slope to just cherry pick something even remotely like it, claim if it's reasonable to have something more advanced than what it's shown in that cherry pick then claim it's common place after that.
But you'd think they would have shown the holographic interfaces in one of the hundreds of episodes from the TOS and TNG era somewhere. Given such a large sample of episodes it's statistically unlikely that we would have not been exposed to it before Star Trek Discovery. They have it as common place where everything is high tech and fancy looking. It was their choice to have this take place before Kirk. They could have had it take place in post-TNG then there would be no in-universe technological limitation issues.
But if we were watching Sliders and they jumped into a world with advanced tech, not a big deal there. That's why alternate dimensions makes more sense.
Yeah it's possible. That's the first thing I suggested in the "where did all the future tech come from" thread. This would mean that the temporal cold war diverged the timeline away from the TOS and TNG era we are familiar with. According to VOY "Relativity" even when they "fix" the timeline it's not perfectly fixed:
DUCANE: Incursion factor point zero zero three six. It's better than I expected.
But Spock's reasoning that it cannot be interacted with is that it's a projection. They also never use the word hologram in the entire series. They say projection or illusion
Yes but it's really unlikely given how many non-occurrences we have been shown so far. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confidence_interval The more non-occurrences we see the more confident we can be that they don't wear TOS uniforms in discovery's universe.
Yes that's the "going to warp" effect that zar pointed out earlier too. But what we're seeing in Discovery is what it looked like when they were at warp.
That's true. An effect from the genesis planet where we see it change Spock's appearance as well.
They call it an assignment patch right on startrek.com too http://www.startrek.com/article/starfleet-insignia-explained
Because you asked for the evidence. I focused and responded to all of the points multiple times now but you couldn't help but claim that I didn't anyway.
Sometimes I think you're just fucking with us for fun!
Your rationale is fundamentally absurd. You're describing the story as if it's a naturally occurring phenomenon that will form according to chance.Because you asked for the evidence. I focused and responded to all of the points multiple times now but you couldn't help but claim that I didn't anyway.
No, it's not at all reasonable to suspect that alternate timelines will end up being responsible for continuity issues because we know that isn't what they've written or intend to write. The link you included at the top of your post makes that clear itself. Akiva Goldsman point blank stated that Discovery is a prototype existing alongside the original series Constitution in the original series timeline, and that they decided to use site-to-site transport because Lorca is different and doesn't care about danger.
Yes, I know the interview isn't "canon" but that's not the point. You're predicting what canon will be based on your own fantasy, deliberately ignoring the obvious real-world plans. You claim as "evidence" that the spore drive isn't mentioned in VOY and that site-to-site is "rare" in TOS, therefore it's "likely" to be an alternate timeline story.
That isn't how it works. This isn't going to happen unless the whole writing team is replaced by some clown who decides to throw everything away and switch the timeline in some "it was all a dream" style copout. Which, as it stands now, is highly unlikely.
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Just like the US Navy only has one uniform for all ships and installations!Right, because...you know...I'm sure 8 billion Klingons all follow the exact same belief systems and have the same morales and ethics.
Just like here on Earth.
Well, alien cultures in Trek (and most sci-fi) tend to be monolithic.Right, because...you know...I'm sure 8 billion Klingons all follow the exact same belief systems and have the same morales and ethics.
Just like here on Earth.
Kor
TNG and TOS being in separate universes WOULD explain a great many things...
TNG and TOS being in separate universes WOULD explain a great many things...
And there's of course als the Odan and the Dax Trills, so DS9 and "The Host" can't be in the same reality either. Or we just assume that there are Trills that have a different physical appearance, but I don't think we can think any further than what is explicitly said onscreen. </sarcasm>
I'd just like to point out a colossal time war which could probably explain every discrepancy ever in Trek.
Interestingly enough, said time war was canonically established in ENT on more than one occasion. They even found a goddamn TARDIS floating around near Tholian space!
I'm thinking it's probably time to start thinking of Star Trek as just a niche spinoff of Doctor Who. All we need to confirm it is to connect the origins of Section 31 to something called "The Torchwood Institute."
You mean just like humanity?
The idea that the only diverse culture is on Earth is poor writing by the writers.
In fact, one group so strongly disagrees with that "empty shell" business that they actually adorn the hulls of their starships with the bodies of their dead, and are offended to the point of rage when someone refrains from showing them proper respect.
Good catch, there!
...which has long been seen by many as a bug, not a feature, and has at times been a fan gripe with respect to the Klingons specifically. Fortunately, DSC continues in the tradition of "Day Of The Dove" (TOS), TNG, TUC, and "Judgment" (ENT) in fleshing them out—no pun intended—and adding greater variety and nuance to them.
I thought your complaint was that they showed too much reverence for even their own dead? Now it's that they don't exhibit enough for puny humans'?
Well, Kol didn't exactly seem to approve, now, did he?
Yes. Yes there is. Is there some particular reason why there can't or shouldn't be?
Actually at this time the Klingons and Federation have at least a nominal peace in place. Granted, they had broken it several times. However, it had also just been reaffirmed a few episodes earlier in "Day Of The Dove" (TOS).
In that particular situation, they did it that way, yes. Perhaps it would save time (which was the driving pressure in question) by virtue of Spock being able to eliminate half the variables and only having to make half the calculations. But site-to-site transports from one external location to another outside of the ship were performed without any difficulty or novelty whatsoever elsewhere in TOS—for instance in "A Piece Of The Action" and "Assignment: Earth"—so the condition of site-to-site needn't necessarily add any greater obstacle under "normal" operating circumstances where hasty performance of complex calculations under the ever-growing mental duress of a mind-addling pinwheel entity aren't a concern
But again, why do you ignore the point that the Enterprise is older than Discovery by at least several years (and perhaps even a decade or more, going by background materials), and that one feature older vessels are specifically and explicitly cited both in DSC and elsewhere (see Franklin in Star Trek Beyond) as sometimes retaining long after superior models become standard is...their transporters! And Discovery isn't even just any newer ship; she's basically the 2256 equivalent of the NX-01 or Prometheus, a bleeding edge prototype vessel packed with all sorts of newfangled goodies that variously might or might not be present on her contemporaries.
Specious. Our experiences of the ST universe have not been a random or representative sample. The writers/designers deliberately show us what they want us to see, out of the limited set of what they have thought of. Whatever a particular plot doesn't call for—and of course anything that they haven't thought of yet—is withheld from us. But you must know this.
We rarely (if ever) see a touchscreen interface on TOS. Does this suggest to you they won't exist, or be commonly used anywhere, until the 24th century? They exist today. Star Trek is always going to be a projected extrapolation of the future based (if often loosely) on current technology in the state it exists now. TOS was based on projections from 1960s tech. Of course it appears less advanced. We must imagine that, despite all appearances, it wasn't. It was only made to be shown on small, relatively low-fidelity TV screens anyway; we were never even supposed to see all the details clearly. It's just an artistic portrayal that takes all sorts of liberties and makes all sorts of compromises based on the circumstances and limitations of its making. The same can be said of every other show. But you must know this, too.
So the very same episode that says they didn't have "holodecks" in the 23rd century says they nevertheless did have holographic imaging! And it's not quantified as to exactly how much less accurate it was. Janeway's only point of comparison is Tuvok's diseased memory, which is scarcely accurate either. He doesn't even seem to remember the time jump between Praxis' explosion and the later events in TUC, or the fact that Valtane actually survived at its end! (Remind me again why this is not "an outlier episode" in your view?)
No it isn't. They both accept that it's a projection well before they decide they can't interact with it, which they only do after trying. Why would they do that if they thought it wasn't possible to interact with a projection?
Because that's parlance a 1966 audience would understand. The word "hologram" was only coined a couple years earlier, and wouldn't enter the public consciousness until years later.
Again, it's merely artistic license. And actually, it's probably a better visual portrayal of space being warped around a "warp bubble" than just stars streaking by. Again, chalk it up to the limitations (whether practical or imaginative) of special effects on previous shows. The proposition that it's supposed to indicate any in-unverse difference at all is a dubious one, and the idea that it's supposed to be some subtle clue to tip us off that we're in a parallel universe even more so. (Though it's quite true that either or both are theoretically possible.)
An effect that precedes her ever beaming down to Genesis, and persists well after she's returned to Vulcan? And all without anyone commenting on it, despite their very mission there being to study and describe Genesis and its effects?
Who's on first?
-MMoM
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Interviewer: "Can you absolutely say that there's going to be no reset button, that if I pulled up a computer in Picard's ship and I looked up Michael Burnham, all the adventures of the USS Discovery, it's all going to be there? There's going to be a through-line?
Harberts: "I would say that in terms of canon we want to make sure that all of that stuff tracks. So whatever you pull up in Picard's computer needs to be correct by the time we end our run."
Interviewer: "So there's no reset button..."
Berg: "No."
Interviewer: "You said something like you'd explain why we'd never heard of Michael Burnham before."
Harberts: "So far what we know is that we haven't heard Spock and Sarek speak about her. So it's our job to make sure that what we've seen still holds water."
...
Berg: "Going back to canon, we are existing in the world of the other series."
Predicted responses:
King Daniel: This isn't a real interview. It's obviously a staged marketing stunt, TrekMovie is a shill and you're a sheep if you fell for it. Keep drinkin' that kool-aid.
Marsh: According to Generations the Picard family has been in space since the first Martian colonies which is in-story canon proof. Statistically, "Picard's ship" probably would mean one from the 150 years BEFORE the timeline diverges in Discovery.
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