You're assuming that DSC's trip to the mirror universe will become public knowledge. Seems a bit hasty. I mean, you don't seriously think Lorca's going to put this in his official report to Starfleet, do ya?
so the producers and writers said that discovery will lead into TOS (60's aesthetics and all)...
- Thread starter crashchaos
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You're assuming that DSC's trip to the mirror universe will become public knowledge. Seems a bit hasty. I mean, you don't seriously think Lorca's going to put this in his official report to Starfleet, do ya?
100 years is a long time. This is a ridiculous supposition that cultures will not change in ten, 50 or 100 years.
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Don't care. It's fun
What I mean is DS9, VOY, and TNG have the same kind of culture and level of technology so it doesn't work that way in the 24th century. I doubt it works that way in the 23rd century as a way of explaining the differences. Unless they explicitly say so or show TOS style uniforms exists on some other ship we haven't seen yet this is baseless.100 years is a long time. This is a ridiculous supposition that cultures will not change in ten, 50 or 100 years.
Careful there. You don't want to end up with a falsifiable theory on your hands.
No no, you see...all characters are infallibly omniscient and omnipresent...and also completely truthful and forthcoming at all times...it's impossible for anything to ever have happened or existed anywhere, at any time, that they didn't know about and/or wouldn't mention...or at least it's statistically improbable...that's just science...the science of literary criticism.
And all the props, visual effects, makeup, and actors represent exactly and entirely accurately what everything and everyone looks like in-universe, with no room for artistic license, error, or compromise to meet budget and time restrictions!
By all rights, it shouldn't be...but somehow, perversely, it is. For a while, anyway.Don't care. It's fun
-MMoM
Don't care. 100 years is a long time for things to change. There is no reason to assume that Starfleet didn't used multiple types of ships and uniforms during the TOS era.
ETA: correcting meaing. Thank you @The Mighty Monkey of Mim
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No reason not to assume, I take it you meant? And actually, we do affirmatively have reason to assume exactly that, because the "Where No Man Has Gone Before" uniforms continued to be seen occasionally in the background during TOS. And the Franz Joseph designs apparently continue to coexist alongside the refit-style ships in the movies. Plus the Grissom looks nothing like any of the others, externally anyway. And there's a ship that looks a bit like Discovery (in fact a study model for the proposed Planet Of The Titans design on which she was loosely based) in Spacedock in STIII.
-MMoM
Oops. Fixed itNo reason not to assume, I take it you meant? And actually, we do affirmatively have reason to assume exactly that, because the "Where No Man Has Gone Before" uniforms continued to be seen occasionally in the background during TOS. And the Franz Joseph designs apparently continue to coexist alongside the refit-style ships in the movies. Plus the Grissom looks nothing like any of the others, externally anyway. And there's a ship that looks a bit like Discovery (in fact a study model for the proposed Planet Of The Titans design on which she was loosely based) in Spacedock in STIII.
-MMoM
And Starfleet has a bit of a habit of changing uniforms. In TNG season 2 we saw a slightly different uniform variant introduced which went on to co-exist with the early DS9 uniform which was four (?) years later replaced by yet another uniform.
Why are we trying to reconcile the Federation uniforms and ships when they've deliberately changed the Klingons and their ships from the same show so totally? If you can't make them fit with ENT, TOS, TNG, DS9 and Voyager (and you can't), why bother the rest?
The difference in Klingon appearance may well be explained sooner or later, just as eventually happened the last time they were equally deliberately and drastically changed for TMP...where we were initially (for decades) just supposed to accept it as artistic license without needing any in-universe explanation. Likewise, that the Klingons have a wide variety of ship design lineages that coexist over the centuries (despite not always being seen together) doesn't require an explanation any more than the Starfleet ships do.
-MMoM
Thing is, the Klingons use the same D7 battlecruiser and virtually the same Bird of Prey in ENT as they do in DS9 - that's 225 years of in-universe history. If you try and factor in DSC, we have a fleet of entirely different ships (very deliberately designed so, I might add) which they used for a decade before TOS -one of which is even called a D7 battlecruiser and another a bird of prey- and then never ever again. And that's ridiculous.
I definitely go for artistic license, and treat the rest of the show (story and world, as well as visuals) the same way. Basically making it it's own thing.
I definitely go for artistic license, and treat the rest of the show (story and world, as well as visuals) the same way. Basically making it it's own thing.
Here explain this one people, the Horta. There should be only one in existence. But here it is
KIRK: Those round silicon nodules that you've been collecting and destroying? They're her eggs. Tell them, Mister Spock.
SPOCK: There have been many generations of Horta on this planet. Every fifty thousand years, the entire race dies, all but one, like this one, but the eggs live. She cares for them, protects them. And when they hatch, she is the mother to them, thousands of them. This creature here is the mother of her race.
The Gorn skeleton and the tribble have no business being in his office either.
KIRK: Those round silicon nodules that you've been collecting and destroying? They're her eggs. Tell them, Mister Spock.
SPOCK: There have been many generations of Horta on this planet. Every fifty thousand years, the entire race dies, all but one, like this one, but the eggs live. She cares for them, protects them. And when they hatch, she is the mother to them, thousands of them. This creature here is the mother of her race.
The Gorn skeleton and the tribble have no business being in his office either.
In the end, does it truly matter one way or the other?
I tend to take authorial intent at face value until it is incontrovertibly unsustainable. I also tend to wait for a completed work to make such a judgment. When DSC is complete, then I'll know if they lied, were honest but failed in their attempt, or did enough for it not to matter. However it turns out, it doesn't alter how I feel about the show.
When TMP Klingons were on screen, I simply assumed, in-universe, they were a different "ethnicity" than the ones I'd seen in TOS--until I was given new information (I immediately understood the real world reasons for the differences). I felt ZERO need for an "explanation". I took Worf's comment in DS9 as "something too embarrassing to tell outsiders" and left it at that, speculating some sort of forced or accidental biological manipulation occurred, given Kang, Koloth and Kor. Still didn't care. When ENT gave me an "explanation", it worked fine (didn't need it, didn't object to it). IF DSC gives me an "explanation", I'm sure I'll feel the same. If not, I'll rely on my TMP speculation from 35+ years ago.
As to ships--I have NEVER cared much about them, except as utilitarian devices (the way jeeps, fighter jets and aircraft carriers are utilitarian devices). Do they perform the function for which they are intended? Then that's all that matters to me. The D7 thing? I can overlook it as a screwup or inconsistency like "James R. Kirk", "Warbird" (instead of Bird of Prey), "Vulcanian" vs. "Vulcan", "Andoria" vs "Andor", etc. Nothing to get excited about.
Ultimately, though, all art, even commercial art, is a subjective experience and NO ONE can dictate to the audience how they "should" interpret it--so if someone wants to view it as "Prime" while another wants to view it as "reboot" and another as something else...c'est la vie.
I tend to take authorial intent at face value until it is incontrovertibly unsustainable. I also tend to wait for a completed work to make such a judgment. When DSC is complete, then I'll know if they lied, were honest but failed in their attempt, or did enough for it not to matter. However it turns out, it doesn't alter how I feel about the show.
When TMP Klingons were on screen, I simply assumed, in-universe, they were a different "ethnicity" than the ones I'd seen in TOS--until I was given new information (I immediately understood the real world reasons for the differences). I felt ZERO need for an "explanation". I took Worf's comment in DS9 as "something too embarrassing to tell outsiders" and left it at that, speculating some sort of forced or accidental biological manipulation occurred, given Kang, Koloth and Kor. Still didn't care. When ENT gave me an "explanation", it worked fine (didn't need it, didn't object to it). IF DSC gives me an "explanation", I'm sure I'll feel the same. If not, I'll rely on my TMP speculation from 35+ years ago.
As to ships--I have NEVER cared much about them, except as utilitarian devices (the way jeeps, fighter jets and aircraft carriers are utilitarian devices). Do they perform the function for which they are intended? Then that's all that matters to me. The D7 thing? I can overlook it as a screwup or inconsistency like "James R. Kirk", "Warbird" (instead of Bird of Prey), "Vulcanian" vs. "Vulcan", "Andoria" vs "Andor", etc. Nothing to get excited about.
Ultimately, though, all art, even commercial art, is a subjective experience and NO ONE can dictate to the audience how they "should" interpret it--so if someone wants to view it as "Prime" while another wants to view it as "reboot" and another as something else...c'est la vie.
...and in both, they also have other ships that look no more like them than any of the DSC designs...
"Judgment" (ENT):
"Bounty" (ENT):
"Sons Of Mogh" (DS9):
"Rules Of Engagement" (DS9):
"Sons And Daughters" (DS9):
And the TOS Enterprise and the Franklin from Beyond are both called "Starship Class"...and the TOS Enterprise and its movie refit are both called "Constitution Class" (except when they're called "Enterprise Class")...and the TAS Klingon battlecruiser and a different ENT design are both called "D-5 Class"...and there have been a whole host of disparate designs called "Antares Class"!
Besides, the whole point of all the references to "D-7 class" over the years is that it's an in-joke referring back to an on-set prank played by Shatner and Nimoy on Roddenberry during the filming of TOS...concerning heated disagreement over whether it was or wasn't in fact the correct designation for a particular ship type or not!
That doesn't mean they're not set in the same continuity storywise.
-MMoM
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Which, culturally, is stupid. Basically, we have to account for this as cultural stagnation and technological stunting. That's ridiculous.
It is ridiculous, but not for the reason you suggest. For one, it's ridiculous to have seen a few of the same classes over 225 years, which is something many fans have criticized for years. It's also ridiculous to suggest that the best interpretation of those seen in DSC must be that they appeared suddenly 10 years before TOS and "never ever again".
Alright, and the rest of us will treat you that way as well - rejecting reality and substituting it with your own, making it your own thing. I'm sure that's true in the Dan reality. Meanwhile, in the prime reality, the storytellers are concentrated on expanding the world of the original.
One major element of that is the very idea that the Klingons are not this monolithic society, and also that the empire is going through a transitional period leading up to TOS. If you reject that and imagine that your Klingons are still monolithic for 200 years and differences only exist in alternate realities, I think you're doing yourself a disservice and choosing to see a more shallow version of the stories.
Cannot solve it all. By TOS retire Discovery and any other crossfield class ships,uniforms and tech. Discomidate all Klingons we have see and expel them and their ships from the Empire?
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