George Takei accused of sexual assault.

[urbandefault]

I think the defense of Takei is a little disingenuous.

If it's ok to condemn everyone else with nothing more than an allegation, it should apply here, too. People who won't watch TMP because of allegations about the Decker Unit? Please. It's a movie. It's Hollywood. If you think this is all new, hello. Welcome to reality.

Hollywood, and DC politics, for that matter, is a miniature universe unto itself. People who enter that sphere either know what they're doing, or soon find out. They can choose to stay in that environment, or run away. I'm sick of the pile-on sob stories. These people make a ton of money for being there, and they know how it works. This all started with the Weinstein thing, and from all accounts, everyone knew about it for years.

Whether or not George blew a guy that was passed out is a non-starter. The real problem is that people in these situations come out now when they should have piped up years ago. If it was real assault they should have reported it when it happened, not decades later.

Going back, Ted Kennedy wasn't run out of Washington for his escapades. He left a woman to die at Chappaquiddick. And does anybody remember the "waitress sandwich" with him and Chris Dodd? Didn't think so. Those kinds of things are buried by the media. That Roy Moore is being threatened with expulsion from the Senate if hr wins is a huge example of the hypocracy in DC.

Hollywood, and DC, is a cesspool. It's always been that way, and it will continue to be.

Personally, it doesn't make a damn bit of difference to me. Just be consistent. Call foul, no matter who it is.

 

[Maurice]

What I'm suggesting is being weary of people making something out of nothing where there's no criminal intent like they were just joking, being too affectionate, or it's just not a big deal but people can spin it into something more serious and bring the public into it.

If you've ever been on the receiving end of unwanted advances, touching, joking or not, especially where there's a power differential, that's nontrivial. I don't know what your point is, but it's teetering on the edge of a very deep Abyss.

Then we're supposed to treat them like a queen/king afterward like "poor so and so got victimized".

Who says we're supposed to do that? Is it so hard to feel a little sympathy for someone who had a bad experience?

Some people value women's safety more than men's, that's just how it is.

Hoo boy. This argument. Look, all lives matter, but "Black Lives Matter" has an implied "Too" that many people ignore in their knee-jerk reaction to it. Women are not the sole target of sexual shaming, harassment and assault, but they have historically been primary targets of it and oftentimes expected to just tolerate it, and acknowledging same doesn't diminish the experiences of men who've been the victims of it.

If I were Takei being 80 years old at retirement age I would just tell people "screw off, mind your own business, you ain't my momma"

I'd love to see the firestorm that would result if he tried that dainty approach.

 

[Mark 2000]

Hollywood, and DC, is a cesspool. It's always been that way, and it will continue to be.

It takes a special kind of anonymous person to publicly say that a criminal system should remain so and a select class of people should just take their lumps, so I salute your bravery. This is a similar argument to saying blacks should have remained slaves because they got room and board. Goodness knows that situation was never fixed.

 

[O_Kav]

people making something out of nothing

Out of nothing ? Are the centuries Black People endured slavery, decades more lacking basic civil rights something to be called "nothing" ? Are millennia of Women being treated like a property, not having the right of participating in political life and no right over their own bodies something to be called "nothing" too ? The countless years of Gay folks not having the right of marrying the people they love, of being victim of lynchings... Is that nothing ?

The place those accusations are coming from can't be called "nothing". This can't just be dismissed as a "trend". This is not coming out of a vacuum. These are the consequences of social groups being treated like second class citizens for far too long.

Maybe from the perspective of people who are shielded from all these predicaments I mentioned, yeah, something can just look like no big deal. For how long did Society treated things like blackface as "just a joke" ? For how long did Society justified Men regulating Women's lives "out of affection" ? I'm sure White Men back then thought those things were "no biggie" too.

Then we're supposed to treat them like a queen/king afterward

Hmmm... Sorry, what ? Having depression, anxiety, suicidal thoughts is "being treated like a king" now ? Because most people who come forward about these cases do face a plethora of mental health adversities resulted from the traumatic experience they lived through. Are we too forgetting that not long ago, it was widespread assuming bad intentions from every marginalized person who accused someone more privileged ? Not seeing any kings or queens here, to be honest.

Some people value women's safety more than men's, that's just how it is.

In most parts of the planet and the U.S, Women still can't perform abortions even when their life is in danger and you're implying people somehow care more about Women's safety ? What are you talking about ?

If I were Takei being 80 years old at retirement age I would just tell people "screw off, mind your own business, you ain't my momma"

Takei should be considered innocent until proven otherwise, however, there's no such thing as writing off wrongdoings because of old age.

 

[marsh8472]

Out of nothing ? Are the centuries Black People endured slavery, decades more lacking basic civil rights something to be called "nothing" ? Are millennia of Women being treated like a property, not having the right of participating in political life and no right over their own bodies something to be called "nothing" too ? The countless years of Gay folks not having the right of marrying the people they love, of being victim of lynchings... Is that nothing ?

The place those accusations are coming from can't be called "nothing". This can't just be dismissed as a "trend". This is not coming out of a vacuum. These are the consequences of god knows how long of social groups being treated like second class citizens for far too long.

Maybe from the perspective of people who are shielded from all these predicaments I mentioned, yeah, something can just look like no big deal. For how long did Society treated things like blackface as "just a joke" ? For how long did Society justified Men regulating Women's lives "out of affection" ? I'm sure White Men back then thought those things were "no biggie" too.

Yeah it's all nothing as far as excuses are concerned. I'm not going to treat people like royalty because some of my ancestors did something to some of their ancestors. Boohoo. It gets old because there are people who do expect it.

Hmmm... Sorry, what ? Having depression, anxiety, suicidal thoughts is "being treated like a king" now ? Because most people who come forward about these cases do face a plethora of mental health adversities resulted the traumatic experience they lived through. Are we too forgetting that not long ago, it was widespread assuming bad intentions from every marginalized person who accused someone more privileged ? Not seeing any kings or queens here, to be honest.

There are those that do it for their 15 minutes of fame.

In most parts of the planet and the U.S, Women still can't perform abortions even when their life is in danger and you're implying people somehow care more about Women's safety ? What are you talking about ?

There are some that are taking this less seriously because it's a guy on guy thing and not a guy on girl thing. I was talking about that. There is going to be a double standard and that's okay. People can have whatever standard they want in the public sphere.

Takei should be considered innocent until proven otherwise, however, there's no such thing as writing off wrongdoings because of old age.

The statute of limitations is up which means he'll never be proven guilty in a court of law. Taking it to the public is vigilante justice. The people who are most judgemental about it tend to be just as bad themselves. It's like this is all an exercise in making fellow wrong-doers feel better about themselves in that respect.

 

[Maurice]

Again, this whole movement is largely about showing how pervasive sexual misconduct is, and demonstrating that you can speak up about it, no matter how low or high the perpetrators are, thus making others aware how rampant it is ergo making people who commit it realize they have no expectation it will not come out and maybe deter them from trying.

Everything else you're spewing (and I choose that word VERY deliberately), marsh84721, is tone deaf and utterly and I think deliberately misses the point.

 

[O_Kav]

I'm not going to treat people like royalty because some of my ancestors did something to some of their ancestors.

Oh, so you're implying it's "all in the past" and that everything is all right now ? You're basically saying that History has no effect whatsoever on contemporaneous Society. That's just wrong.

I mean, fine, if you think this is just an issue between our ancestors, then tell me... When did exactly racism, sexism and homophobia end ?

Tell me, what's the year when people stopped denying jobs to Black people, the year employers stopped paying less Women, the year when there are no more cases of State employees individually denying to marry Gay couples ? If it's all in the past, there must be a specific point where it all stopped. Enlighten us, please.

And how treating people equally means you're treating them like royalty ? Fairness is for Kings only ? Jesus...

There are those that do it for their 15 minutes of fame.

Sure, there are. Is that bad thing to do ? It is. Is it an issue ? Nope.

Show the statistics that tell us the % of people who do false accusations among those whose accusations are proven genuine. It's a very small number. False accusations are not widespread and that's it.

There are some that are taking this less seriously because it's a guy on guy thing and not a guy on girl thing. I was talking about that. There is going to be a double standard and that's okay. People can have whatever standard they want in the public sphere.

Women are not taken more seriously than Men when they accuse someone of something. Even in Countries where they created specific Laws and Social Programs that are supposed to encourage Women to come forward, they still are way more afraid than Men are. Because systemic sexism against Women didn't end anywhere in the planet.

The statute of limitations is up which means he'll never be proven guilty in a court of law. Taking it to the public is vigilante justice.

I wasn't making a "legalist" argument. Even then, people can believe there should be no statute of limitations. Neither was I talking about vigilante justice. Folks can still believe someone did something wrong without asking for any type of punishment.

The people who are most judgemental about it tend to be just as bad themselves. It's like this is all an exercise in making fellow wrong-doers feel better about themselves in that respect.

"If you believe someone did something wrong you must've done it as well!"

That's not an argument. That's the exact same thing Trump supporters are saying to conclude Takei is guilty. They're saying that because he was vocal against the cases of sexual harassment in Hollywood, that must be a "Freudian slip" in his part proving that he did the same things he spoke against. You and I know that's just a silly form of rhetoric.

 

[marsh8472]

Again, this whole movement is largely about showing how pervasive sexual misconduct is, and demonstrating that you can speak up about it, no matter how low or high the perpetrators are, thus making others aware how rampant it is ergo making people who commit it realize they have no expectation it will not come out and maybe deter them from trying.

Everything else you're spewing (and I choose that word VERY deliberately), marsh84721, is tone deaf and utterly and I think deliberately misses the point.

Oh, so you're implying it's "all in the past" and that everything is all right now ? You're basically saying that History has no effect whatsoever on contemporaneous Society. That's just wrong.

I mean, fine, if you think this is just an issue between our ancestors, then tell me... When did exactly racism, sexism and homophobia end ?

Tell me, what's the year when people stopped denying jobs to Black people, the year employers stopped paying less Women, the year when there are no more cases of State employees individually denying to marry Gay couples ? If it's all in the past, there must be a specific point where it all stopped. Enlighten us, please.

And how treating people equally means you're treating them like royalty ? Fairness is for Kings only ? Jesus...




Sure, there are. Is that bad thing to do ? It is. Is it an issue ? Nope.

Show the statistics that tell us the % of people who do false accusations among those whose accusations are proven genuine. It's a very small number. False accusations are not widespread and that's it.



Women are not taken more seriously than Men when they accuse someone of something. Even in Countries where there's specific Laws and Social Programs that are supposed to encourage Women to come forward, they still are way more afraid than Men are. Because systemic sexism against Women didn't end anywhere in the planet.



I wasn't making a "legalist" argument. Even then, people can believe there should be no statute of limitations. Neither was I talking about vigilante justice. Folks can still believe someone did something wrong without asking for any type of punishment.



"If you believe someone did something wrong you must've done it as well!"

That's not an argument. That's the exact same thing Trump supporters are saying to conclude Takei is guilty. They're saying that because he was vocal against the cases of sexual harassment in Hollywood, that must be a "Freudian slip" in his part proving that he did the same things he spoke against. You and I know that's just a silly form of rhetoric.

K I'm done venting about it now I'm speaking to the people who know exactly where I'm coming from. This is one of those things where you either see where I'm coming from or you don't. I could go back and forth about it for 10 or 15 pages but it won't change anything.

 

[Mark 2000]

Yeah it's all nothing as far as excuses are concerned. I'm not going to treat people like royalty because some of my ancestors did something to some of their ancestors. Boohoo. It gets old because there are people who do expect it.

This is a beautiful mischaracterization. Some people's ancestors had many opportunities to accumulate and pass on wealth and education that others' didn't. This can go as far back as slavery, and as recently as Jim Crow, loan redlining, and different penalties inflicted by judges for petty crimes. If two people smoke pot and one goes to prison and the other gets a slap on the wrist, guess which is going to have more opportunities in life? That's here and now.

There are those that do it for their 15 minutes of fame.

And out of the hundreds of women coming forward over the years and even just recently you can probably name two or three at most. You've personally decided to use those outliers to discredit the majority. It has no basis in reality.

Taking it to the public is vigilante justice. The people who are most judgemental about it tend to be just as bad themselves.

I think you've got it wrong. People who are the quickest to defend this behavior are the ones usually defending their own bad behavior by proxy. They make sexual assault less of a big deal and raise enough doubts about its legitimacy to protect themselves from the day they're own accusers step forward.

 

[O_Kav]

K I'm done venting about it now I'm speaking to the people who know exactly where I'm coming from. This is one of those things where you either see where I'm coming from or you don't. I could go back and forth about it for 10 or 15 pages but it won't change anything.

Well... I'm sorry if I sounded impolite. It's nothing personal. And I do see where you coming from. I'm also not a fan of the whole "let's conclude Takei is guilty prematurely" bandwagon some people are jumping in.

 

[Mark 2000]

Well... I'm sorry if I sounded impolite. It's nothing personal. And I do see where you coming from. I'm also not a fan of the whole "let's conclude Takei is guilty prematurely" bandwagon some people are jumping in.

He's not accusing you of being rude. He just doesn't have any rational come back to the multitudes of people who are very carefully and respectfully explaining how wrong he is. He wants back in his bubble of "people who know where he's coming from". If that's not the statement of a person who can't defend themselves I don't know what is.

 

[marsh8472]

He's not accusing you of being rude. He just doesn't have any rational come back to the multitudes of people who are very carefully and respectfully explaining how wrong he is. He wants back in his bubble of "people who know where he's coming from". If that's not the statement of a person who can't defend themselves I don't know what is.

naaa it's a matter of upbringing and environment. I can't explain it without going into personal specifics. You're just a bit naive about how malicious people can be.

 

[Mark 2000]

naaa it's a matter of upbringing and environment. I can't explain it without going into personal specifics. You're just a bit naive about how malicious people can be.

So you’re a slave to your upbringing? You’re not capable of digesting new facts and forming new opinions? I don’t know who these malicious people are I’m naive about. I’m pretty wise to the malicious nature of the very ignorant rhetoric you’re pushing. Honestly, the way you’ve bowed to the refuge of those who “get you” you sound an awful lot like a “snowflake” looking for a “safe space”.

 

[marsh8472]

So you’re a slave to your upbringing? You’re not capable of digesting new facts and forming new opinions? I don’t know who these malicious people are I’m naive about. I’m pretty wise to the malicious nature of the very ignorant rhetoric you’re pushing. Honestly, the way you’ve bowed to the refuge of those who “get you” you sound an awful lot like a “snowflake” looking for a “safe space”.

Why do you care what I think . I just randomly searched for falsely accused people here's an example

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People do falsely accuse even in cases where it doesn't make any sense why they would do it. They just want to hurt people and will exploit their advantages whether it be their gender, ethnicity, religion or sexual preference to do it. So if someone of a specific group X makes an accusation where that group X makes the accusation a more sensitive issue then people are going to tip toe around more and escalate it all because they belong to group X. I would just not play that game and treat them as if they belonged to any other group. It shouldn't matter if they're in group X whether it be they are a woman, gay, islamic or anything else. People need to learn not to let their demographic become a weapon to accuse others. It's an issue of over compensating for discrimination.

 

[Mark 2000]

Why do you care what I think .

Where did I say I do?

I love your example, btw. It’s the case of someone reporting a rape and the police fingering and pushing for the procecution of someone the victim couldn’t even pick out of lineup. There’s no evil woman lying here for fame and fortune. This is a police corruption issue. So, the point you’ve proven is... what? Insert laughing emoji here.

But you could run through the internet and find dozens of anecdotes relating directly to your case. The actual numbers in study after study of the number and reasons for false allegations would not support you at all. Nor would the comparatively larger anecdotes of the literally thousands of women who have detailed stories of being harassed and assaulted.

 

[marsh8472]

Where did I say I do?

I love your example, btw. It’s the case of someone reporting a rape and the police fingering and pushing for the procecution of someone the victim couldn’t even pick out of lineup. There’s no evil woman lying here for fame and fortune. This is a police corruption issue. So, the point you’ve proven is... what? Insert laughing emoji here.

But you could run through the internet and find dozens of anecdotes relating directly to your case. The actual numbers in study after study of the number and reasons for false allegations would not support you at all. More would the comparatively larger anecdotes of the literally thousands of women who have detailed stories of being harassed and assaulted.

I doubt you know anything about studies on this. I think you just made that up Yeah.. you made that up. Mental Illness is also an issue in today's society like the kind that causes mass shootings. Here's a study https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/30da/e0d5d267320e3259eb175d84ea17b98821a9.pdf

One study in 1988 by the Association of Family and Conciliation Courts reported 75% of the false allegations in divorces were affected by emotional instability or mental illness

I don't know anything about Takei's accuser. Anyone talking about that here?

The reviewers recorded the following motivations as cause of false accusations:
1) Spite, revenge
2) Compensation for feelings of guilt or shame,
3) Extortion and or
4) Publicity: The example of Mike Tyson was cited, who was falsely accused b
y 11 women from
the Miss Black America Pageant, who would have relieved approximately $20 million each.

My point earlier was people get tired of tip toeing when pressured to do so. Like when accusations were flying earlier in this thread about double standards and saying we wouldn't be going so easy on Takei had the accuser had been a woman. That may be true. But I'm not running for public office, I don't care if it's true or not. I suspect this is one reason why Trump got elected. Voters wanted to stick it to people who make them tip toe.

 

[Mark 2000]

Here's a study

By a nobody from an institute that brings up no search results other than it’s own web site. The actual paper is only ever linked to by red pill reddit forums. Is that what you mean by people who understand you?

The writer of the “study”, Frank Zepezauer, isn’t a psychologist or even a scientist. He has an MA in English. His only other work is a self published book on Amazon about how feminists are destroying the men’s movement: https://www.amazon.com/Feminist-Crusades-Making-Building-Bureaucracies/dp/1425972861
This is where you get your information? This is what you think you’re going to convince us all with? A 79 year old English major who’s never published anything and thinks Mike Tyson is innocent and somehow turned his single accuser in eleven? Oh, bravo!

BTW, ask Frank how you relieve money from someone. I’m really curious.

 

[marsh8472]

By a nobody from an institute that brings up no search results other than it’s own web site. The actual paper is only ever linked to by red pill reddit forums. Is that what you mean by people who understand you?

The writer of the “study”, Frank Zepezauer, isn’t a psychologist or even a scientist. He has an MA in English. His only other work is a self published book on Amazon about how feminists are destroying the men’s movement: https://www.amazon.com/Feminist-Crusades-Making-Building-Bureaucracies/dp/1425972861
This is where you get your information? This is what you think you’re going to convince us all with? A 79 year old English major who’s never published anything and thinks Mike Tyson is innocent? Oh, bravo!

Just a quick and dirty google. He's citing other studies in the paper. This is not his own study. He sites numerous studies in the paper. You would have to research the studies and discredit them. You have your work ahead of you. I don't know anything about the Mike Tyson case but if you're a malicious person it's a pretty easy way to make money to accuse someone who is hard to believe and then force him to pay them to go away in the civil courts.

 

[Mark 2000]

I don't know anything about the Mike Tyson case but if you're a malicious person it's a pretty easy way to make money to accuse someone who is hard to believe and then force him to pay them to go away in the civil courts.

Mike Tyson was convicted of raping *one* woman who had corroborating witnesses. He spent 3 years in jail and lost an appeal as well. There was a settled civil suit, but no number has ever been released. So the bit about 11 women falsely accusing him and losing $20 million a piece is completely fabricated information in just the tiny part of that paper that you quoted, not to mention the misspelled words. If he didn’t get that right then why do I have to spend my time debunking the whole thing line by line? Would you like me to debunk all of John Damore’s carefully sourced manifesto on how women are mentally inferior, too?

You could have looked this information up, but you didn’t. You just assumed the victim was a liar and stood to make a mint. Never mind that Tyson, a swell guy who beat his wife and bit a man’s ear off, was convicted in a criminal case and denied an appeal. You have no interest in truth either. I feel like I’m part of a satire. You can’t be real.

 

[marsh8472]

Mike Tyson was convicted of raping *one* woman who had corroborating witnesses. He spent 3 years in jail and lost an appeal as well. There was a settled civil suit, but no number has ever been released. So the bit about 11 women falsely accusing him and losing $20 million a piece is completely fabricated information in just the tiny part of that paper that you quoted, not to mention the misspelled words. If he didn’t get that right then why do I have to spend my time debunking the whole thing line by line? Would you like me to debunk all of John Damore’s carefully sourced manifesto on how women are mentally inferior, too?

You could have looked this information up, but you didn’t. You just assumed the victim was a liar and stood to make a mint. Never mind that Tyson, a swell guy who beat his wife and bit a man’s ear off, was convicted in a criminal case and denied an appeal. You have no interest in truth either. I feel like I’m part of a satire. You can’t be real.

You claimed there were misspelled words in the paper. Where are they? Spell check didn't pick up anything. If you're going to construct an ad hominem attack against the paper you could at least do it with a correct premise. If you don't feel like researching those sources it's not a big deal. I'll just accept your concession on that matter. That paper may be too old. There's studies cited here you could research next https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape#Estimates_of_prevalence. I wasn't citing studies myself, you brought that up. Anyway let me know what you find when you're done looking at all that.