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Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x08 - "Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum"

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EDIT: I obviously could be wrong, in which case we’ll see Saru doing nothing but scrubbing the decks and polishing silverware for the next two episodes, but I kinda doubt it.


It’s kinda hard to comprehend that there (apparently) won’t be any consequences for Saru for scuttling the mission and endangering his fellow officers.

I can’t imagine a military where his actions wouldn’t lead to a court martial. (And before somebody says “But it’s war maaan!” Accountability and discipline is especially important during a war. Pulling stuff like this usually gets punished harder in wartime than in peacetime.

Or at least drop him off at the planet, if he’s so keen on it, and have him explore the place.

Instead Lorca & co. seem to be all: “Insubordination, no biggie! Happens to the best of them!” And make it look like it’s either amateur hour at Starfleet, or like Lorca is trying to build a collection of mutineers for his ship. Or both.
 
I guess the data in my head was corrupted and I was thinking of something else, and/or my memory processor needs an upgrade. In any case, I suppose Spock was a first something at some point. :)

Wasn't Spock the first Vulcan to turn down a spot at the Vulcan Science Academy?
 
Vulcan attitudes towards Starfleet must have changed since Archer's time, else there wouldn't be enough Vulcans in Starfleet at the time Discovery is set to later man the Intrepid.
^^^
Or that was the result of "The Vulcanian Expedition" Kirk mentioned he was a part of as a Cadet in TOS - "Court Martial".
^^^
fans have speculated the UFP Council sent a delegation to Vulcan to complain about how Vulcan, a founding member wasn't contributing much to Starfleet in the way of personnel; and as a result, the Vulcan sent a contingent of Vulcans to Starfleet Academy who were eventually all assigned to the U.S.S. Intrepid. (The Vulcan Admiral could be part of the result too as again, the Expedition took place prior to the current events of ST: D.) ;)
 
As it is, they will probably stick to the Okudachron timeline for TOS events if they need them for something. Simply because it is less work.
Okudachron already needs to be shifted based on "Q2" (VGR), which places the end of the 5-year-mission sometime in 2270 (not 2269, meaning it began sometime in 2265, not 2264), and "The Trouble With Tribbles" is apparently already in 2268 (not 2267) per "Trials and Tribble-ations" (DS9). Okudachron also fails to recognize that Kirk and Gary Mitchell were instructor and student at the Academy, not classmates, and that the Republic was some years after Finney was Kirk's instructor...and thus posits the silly (and wholly unnecessary, when everything is laid out together) theory that Kirk became an ensign and then a lieutenant while still a cadet! God, I hope DSC has done their homework, and doesn't repeat the same mistakes, or screw things up any further on that front...

Should have some more time to work on this later today.

Wasn't Spock the first Vulcan to turn down a spot at the Vulcan Science Academy?
In the Kelvin Timeline, yes, per ST09.
 
I guess the data in my head was corrupted and I was thinking of something else, and/or my memory processor needs an upgrade. In any case, I suppose Spock was a first something at some point. :)
No worries. :) I have frequent mis-remembrances myself, which is why I write everything down that is of importance to me. Sadly, imperfect memory recalls get more frequent as one gets older.
 
cornwell is dead - l'rell uses the sarcophagus to revive her :devil:
Sure seems like they are setting that up. Of course, that would be directly lifted from Stargate. In the book "Initiation" by Elisabeth Haich, where she recounts her past life in Egypt, she says that the sarcophagus found in the great pyramid at Giza was not a burial artifact, but was instead used in an initiaton process, where one would lie down in the sarcophagus and then in combination with the energy dynamics of the pyramid, one would experience altered states of consciousness, future lives, and other phenomena. So the sarcophagus as an active device rather than an elaborate burial container, has been discussed before, even before Stargate, as the aforementioned book was first published in 1960, and there may even be earlier references.
 
he last line refers specifically to the dream of those individual humanitarians and statesmen on that particular mission, or to the general dream of all humanitarians and statesmen including those who founded the Federation, and consequently also unclear whether the "brothers" bit is alluding to one or the other event, or neither.
 
In any case, I suppose Spock was a first something at some point. :)
Poor guy isn't even Sarek's first born.
He's Kirk's first officer.;)

Spock was the first Vulcan to turn down a placement in the Vulcan Science Academy.
...with the caveat that we don't know if this holds true in the Prime Timeline, though. Or did I miss something?

You appear to have quoted me, but not added any comment. What was your thought/question?
 
Okudachron already needs to be shifted based on "Q2" (VGR), which places the end of the 5-year-mission sometime in 2270 (not 2269, meaning it began sometime in 2265, not 2264), and "The Trouble With Tribbles" is apparently already in 2268 (not 2267) per "Trials and Tribble-ations" (DS9). Okudachron also fails to recognize that Kirk and Gary Mitchell were instructor and student at the Academy, not classmates, and that the Republic was some years after Finney was Kirk's instructor...and thus posits the silly (and wholly unnecessary, when everything is laid out together) theory that Kirk became an ensign and then a lieutenant while still a cadet! God, I hope DSC has done their homework, and doesn't repeat the same mistakes, or screw things up any further on that front...

Should have some more time to work on this later today.


In the Kelvin Timeline, yes, per ST09.
Whoa, the Okudas didn't pick up on Kirk being an instructor of Mitchell's in the Academy?
 
In fact, I'd go so far as to speculate that by the TNG era, the Klingon Empire actually has a very well-developed and stable bureaucratic state, and the squabbles between the Houses on the Council are mostly symbolic and fairly irrelevant to most of the real process of governing... they may not actually have much in the way of consequences beyond transient control over the military itself, akin to (say) contemporary squabbles between the four branches of the US military, or between the DOD, the State Department, and the NSC. And the Klingon military is, traditionally, pointed very much outward — concerned with expanding the Empire, not managing day-to-day business within it — which is probably a relief to the Klingons in charge of the latter.
The problem with this theory is, the dispute over succession to the council really DID plunge the Klingon Empire into civil war, onein which the loyalty of the military and its various commanders depended more on personal allegiance than anything else. Gowron quite literally bribes Worf's family into supporting him and the Duras Sisters probably did the same thing for their own supporters (and being backed by the Romulans, had PLENTY of bribe money). And there's also the separatist movement on Krios, which also seems to have the backing of the Romulans through the cooperation of a double-dealing Klingon diplomat. All of which suggests that the Empire's control of both the military and its colonies is tenuous at best.

Put another way: In a situation where the loyalty of the military cannot be fully counted on by the incoming head of state, then the military's willingness to crush dissent in the colonies also depends on them having a personal stake in the outcome. In which case -- as I have often mused in fanfiction -- the Klingon Defense Force is pretty much just the world's largest mercenary corps, and the High Council is its number one investor. They're able to crush dissent ONLY insofar as they're able to pay the warriors to do the deed; if the war becomes too expensive or the High Council can't afford to pay for the amount of troops and material needed for the conflict, the KDF goes home.

Backtrack to the Discovery era, and we can explain this pretty simply: the KDF as an entity doesn't actually exist yet, or at least, isn't a major component of Klingon society. Maybe its only job is to defend the homeworld or just the First City, while the rest of the Empire is managed by the private armies of individual houses. The reason the Empire is fragmented to this degree is because they have no CENTRAL government to speak of, just 24 super wealthy families that get together every now and then to make major decisions over the fate of the "Empire" as a whole. If one of their colonies breaks away, then the family that owns it is responsible for crushing dissent, and more than likely, a rival family backing rebels on said colony is a fairly common cause of this sort of incident.

The trouble is, we honestly just don't know. Given the focus of this whole season, I had hoped that Discovery would move significantly away from the RDM template (notwithstanding its acknowledgment of 24 houses), and clarify some of the political intricacies of Klingon culture in a more coherent way, but at least so far that's clearly not happening. (It's certainly moved away visually, but that's not an improvement.)
I thought it was clear. The "Empire" is a state that is only unified by the Council's willingness to cooperate with each other; they don't meet regularly, or even particularly often, which is why they're so annoyed with T'kuvma -- an outsider -- for using the beacon to summon them, but it's also why T'Kuvma is heard scolding them for only looking after themselves instead of working together to unify the Empire. It's also why Kol is still having to do things to try and get more and more great houses on his side, up to and including stealing T'Kuvma's cloaking technology and offering it to his allies.

It was equally clear that the Klingons of the past were relatively advanced in the past, possibly even in the time of Khaless, which the beacon strongly implies. Aside from the fact that most of the Klingon "military" is turned inwards, it suggests that this, too, wasn't always the case, that the Klingon obsession with militarism is a relatively recent phenomenon and T'Kuvma's fundamentalism is the search for an idealized past that was never real in the first place.
 
Spock was the first Vulcan to turn down a placement in the Vulcan Science Academy.

Also, as he is half-human, their record technically remains untarnished.
live long and prosper. [screams internally]
st_2009_4k_0420.jpg
 
The problem with using the Klingons is twofold:

1: They’re hard to make interesting and it’s even harder to avoid turning them into one dimensional cliches.
Really? My feeling about the Kingons is; how do you not make them interesting? This is a race that values honor above everything, yet are as violent, treacherous, and volatile, as any in the quadrant. They marry and have children, which means they do value love, but would as soon slit your throat and every member of your family without remorse, as they would raise a mug of blood wine with you. And, they are on the same level as just about any other federation race, technologically.

Top it off with a rich history of political intrigue and a slew of crazy familial rituals and this is all extremely fertile ground for stories. This is likely the reason the Klingons have been used so often. They're easy to make interesting.

Now, to me the race that is hard to make interesting, is the Vulcans. In comparison to humans, they're perfect. They outlive us, are stronger, smarter, more logical, and capable of completely suppressing emotion. This is likely the reason that when Vulcan characters are featured, they are usually saddled with compromised emotions either from illness or congenital means, or some such. Forcing a Vulcan to express emotion is about the easiest way to make them vulnerable, sympathetic, and therefore, interesting.
 
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One thing to point out in the Shepard-Gagarin debate...Yuri Gagarin only did one space flight. The Soviets used him for showing off to the rest of the Eastern Block nations and tried to keep in form going back to flying. When he did go back, he protested the launch of the first Soyuz, which did fail. He was banned from space flights after that. He died in a training flight in 1968.

Alan Shepard did more than one space flight. He went to the Moon with Apollo 14, and was promoted to rear admiral before he retired in 1974.

So while Gagarin went first, Shepard has more time and rank. And possibly more honors than Gagarin received. Gagarin's name is worth putting on a starship. Most certainly. But the class ships would generally be given to someone who did more, if one selects ship names that way.

If the Federation or Starfleet names ships like the Americans do or did, that it is by committee. Sometimes to get the funding needed you name a ship after a certain person or place or event that appeals to a segment of the voting block that will get the ship built. That's why American battleships were named after states, and the ones that needed teeth pulled to be funded and built are named after landlocked states....states that have not ports, no sailors, no shipyards....no reason to fund the building of a battleship....it strokes the ego of the Congressman to have the pride of the US Navy be named for him home state.
 
One thing to point out in the Shepard-Gagarin debate...Yuri Gagarin only did one space flight. The Soviets used him for showing off to the rest of the Eastern Block nations and tried to keep in form going back to flying. When he did go back, he protested the launch of the first Soyuz, which did fail. He was banned from space flights after that. He died in a training flight in 1968.

Alan Shepard did more than one space flight. He went to the Moon with Apollo 14, and was promoted to rear admiral before he retired in 1974.

So while Gagarin went first, Shepard has more time and rank. And possibly more honors than Gagarin received. Gagarin's name is worth putting on a starship. Most certainly. But the class ships would generally be given to someone who did more, if one selects ship names that way.

If the Federation or Starfleet names ships like the Americans do or did, that it is by committee. Sometimes to get the funding needed you name a ship after a certain person or place or event that appeals to a segment of the voting block that will get the ship built. That's why American battleships were named after states, and the ones that needed teeth pulled to be funded and built are named after landlocked states....states that have not ports, no sailors, no shipyards....no reason to fund the building of a battleship....it strokes the ego of the Congressman to have the pride of the US Navy be named for him home state.

being the first in outer space trumps a lot - in other words the only guy on an equal footing with gagarin is amstrong.

shephard is to gagarin what collins is to armstrong (aldrin somewhere in between) it doesn't matter that he took the apollo line to luna later.

naming the class for him is just 'america first' i'm afraid
 
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