Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x08 - "Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum"

[Nyotarules]

That's the impression I got too. A lot of people see Saru as a fan favorite - I personally don't like the character one bit. The threat ganglia concept is very cool, IMO, and can serve as almost a precognitive tool if wielded properly, but the character's general demeanor and the way he addresses everyday ship-board issues completely ruins it for me. He's extremely pissy, even more so than Stamets (whom I've actually grown to like more and more since his spore drive experience), he has admitted that he's in a constant state of fear and he's always extremely defensive - borderline unprofessional - when he perceives others to be challenging his authority (whether they're actually doing so or not). Starfleet is supposed to have rigorous psychological testing to be assigned on a vessel, particularly as part of a ship's command staff. There is no way he should be able to pass muster on that, and he's the last person I would want in the center seat with all that baggage he's carrying around. Troi would absolutely lose her shit if she had to sit next to that lanky bag of insecurity for more than ten minutes on the bridge. Just doesn't track for me.

He wouldn't be the first borderline unprofessional command officer in Starfleet, Dr McCoy how he speaks to Spock, the officer who was told to leave his prejudice off the bridge (Balance of Terror) and the blond guy who was freaking out in the First Federation episode.

 

[cultcross]

Lots of successful people and leaders suffer badly from anxiety issues. Whether intentionally or not, I see a parallel in Saru there.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Was he the first Vulcan Human hybrid?

In the novel of the first movie, talking about Sonak following in Spocks shoes?

No.

But I did see mention of an "Alcatraz Children's Park" that made me giggle.

 

[guyute03]

I try to only grab screen shots each week of notable stuff, designs, images, unique stuff... but I'm bored so .... here you go

 

[Nerys Myk]

Saint Stamets of the Spores.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Yes, the Jesus parallel is obvious, but I'm also seeing double Trainspotting.... Or Rent?

Did we see him shooting up on Rent much?

 

[Maestro]

I think this was a cruel joke. But it did get me to stop reading the thread and watch the episode, and next week preview, intently.

Then I done good, right?

This whole "It's supposed to drop at 830 EST, but sometimes it drops as early as 8, but some of us wait until our favorite team finishes their overtime game" streaming model just makes me chuckle as we're not all watching in real time.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

- starship Gagarin (sp?), what class? looks weirdly familiar

Shepard-Class.

I get that it's out of respect for the artist that they allow him to name the ships and classes, and offscreen class names are not a huge deal in the grand scheme of things, but John Eaves' hard-on for all things American aerospace related is really getting out of hand when Alan Shepard's name supersedes Yuri Gagarin's as the first and name ship in the class. Why would a non-American space agency 240 years in the future give preference to the second astronaut in space over the first one?

It's mitigated somewhat by the fact that other ships in the class break the trend of being named for the first astronauts (from our current perspective) by including Sally Ride and the Kerala state in India (where an aerospace and sci-tech institute is located), and other future ships named Gagarin in Trek come in the middle of classes with a mix of different types of ship names, but it seems like kind of a snub (I'm sure unintentional) even to me as an American to list Gagarin after Shepard. It should be the Gagarin Class.

Tuskin, I know you mentioned in another thread how it bothered you that the majority of the class names for the ships in the Battle of the Binary Stars fleet were named for American test pilots (and one Canadian), which frankly, besides being overly Americentric doesn't really strike me as a very creative way for a future interstellar fleet to name their ships. I could get if one class of ships was named after test pilots, but five or six of them? And the fact that they all showed up to the same battle implies that there's probably a lot more classes with similar names that we haven't seen.

We get it, Eaves, you like planes and pilots. So do I. But diversify a bit.

I think it was just that she was seeing that her former comrades, whom she had left behind when she joined Voq, have been slaughtered by Kol and his followers. There's nothing like returning home and finding that all your friends have been eviscerated to get your blood boiling!

This makes things a lot more interesting as well, since it leaves open the possibility of L'Rell and Voq potentially siding with Starfleet against the Klingon factions following Kol because of their betrayal. I'm a firm believer in the Tyler = Voq theory, and it was going to be disappointing to me when it was revealed because I have come to enjoy Tyler as a character and his dynamic with Burnham and nothing could really be the same once the truth (if the theory is correct) about him is revealed.

That's still true to an extent, because Burnham and the rest of the crew will still feel violated and betrayed even if Tyler/Voq turns out to be nominally on their side to advance his own ends, but the opportunity for cooperation and eventual reconciliation between them exists.

Also, has anyone explained why there's a Vulcan admiral in Starfleet? Spock was supposedly the first Vulcan in SF, yet this Terral must have joined far earlier than Spock if he's an admiral at this point.

I think Kirk's ambiguous reference in Whom Gods Destroy has been contradicted or tested enough times to ignore it or explain it away with a different interpretation. T'pol was attached to both Earth Starfleet and presumably the early Federation Starfleet. The Constitution Class USS Intrepid had a full Vulcan crew. TMP featured Commander Sonak before he got turned into Silly Putty and at least three other Vulcan crewmembers on the Enterprise in the background. Valeris was mentioned as the first Vulcan to graduate at the top of her class at Starfleet Academy, implying that many Vulcans had most likely attended before (but probably had difficulties dealing with the non-academic aspects of academy life among so many emotional beings, holding them back from top rankings).

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I like Saru in general but there is hardly a scene he appears in where he doesn't say "Oh by the way, I evolved as a PREY species." They've made it the only thing that stands out about an otherwise reasonably compelling character.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Spock was the first Vulcan to choose Starfleet over the Vulcan Science Academy. There were other Vulcans in Starfleet, just for all those Vulcans it was their safety.

 

[Tuskin38]

I think Kirk's ambiguous reference in Whom Gods Destroy has been contradicted or tested enough times to ignore it or explain it away with a different interpretation.

What exactly did Kirk say?

 

[Turtletrekker]

What exactly did Kirk say?

I believe that this is the quote in question, in regards to the Federation's founders...

James Tiberious Kirk said:
"They were humanitarians and statesmen, and they had a dream, a dream that became a reality and spread throughout the stars, a dream that made Mr. Spock and me brothers."

 

[Charles Phipps]

Besides, in TOS there's a whole ship of Vulcans in the Intrepid.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Besides, in TOS there's a whole ship of Vulcans in the Intrepid.

Briefly

 

[137th Gebirg]

He wouldn't be the first borderline unprofessional command officer in Starfleet, Dr McCoy how he speaks to Spock, the officer who was told to leave his prejudice off the bridge (Balance of Terror) and the blond guy who was freaking out in the First Federation episode.

None of the people you mentioned were command staff. Saru is first officer. XO's primary job is personnel management and other administrative functions that are beneath the Captain. Saru is barely capable of keeping his own personal baggage in check. How is he possibly expected to handle other interpersonal issues with the rest of the crew? If he was just serving as science officer that would be fine. If he is also to be XO, he needs to hold himself to a higher standard of professionalism than what we've seen from him thus far.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

What exactly did Kirk say?

I believe that this is the quote in question, in regards to the Federation's founders...

The context of the surrounding conversation in "Whom Gods Destroy" (TOS) is not the founding of the Federation, but rather the Axanar Peace Mission that followed (perhaps but not necessarily immediately) Garth of Izar's victory there:

"CORY": Garth. Garth of Izar, the former starship fleet captain.
KIRK: When I was a cadet at the Academy, his exploits were required reading. He was one of my heroes. I'd like to see him, Donald.

[...]

KIRK: I studied your victory at Axanar when I was a cadet. In fact, it's still required reading at the Academy.
GARTH: As well it should be.
KIRK: Very well. But my first visit to Axanar was as a new-fledged cadet on a peace mission.
GARTH: Peace mission! Politicians and weaklings!
KIRK: They were humanitarians and statesmen, and they had a dream. A dream that became a reality and spread throughout the stars, a dream that made Mister Spock and me brothers.

However, it is not entirely clear whether the last line refers specifically to the dream of those individual humanitarians and statesmen on that particular mission, or to the general dream of all humanitarians and statesmen including those who founded the Federation, and consequently also unclear whether the "brothers" bit is alluding to one or the other event, or neither.

In any case, I do not read it as any sort of suggestion of Spock being the first Vulcan in Starfleet. Unlike Kirk being the youngest Starship captain, or McCoy being a divorcee with a daughter named Joanna, or Uhura hailing (no pun intended) from the United States of Africa, this does not seem to have been an element of the backstory conceived and detailed by Roddenberry and his cohorts for Spock. No reference to it in the TOS writers/directors' guide or The Making Of Star Trek. The latter does make reference to there being no other Vulcans aboard the Enterprise, which seems to fit with "Amok Time" (TOS), but in "Journey To Babel" (TOS) there explicitly are. (It isn't clear if these are crewmembers or just members of Sarek's delegation, though. It was probably intended to be the latter.)

Canonically, T'Pol was the first Vulcan in Starfleet per ENT.

 

[Turtletrekker]

And let's be honest with ourselves here, every single new Star Trek that has ever come on the air has tweaked the established canon in one form or another. These aren't violations, they are additions.

 

[gblews]

The problem with this hypothesis is that Burham didn't say the line entirely by herself. Ash Tyler said part of it as well, which made it seem like it was some in-universe ad lib which just happened to correspond with what we know Spock is going to say in STII.

There wasn't anything unusual about Tyler finishing the saying. That saying had already likely become part of Starfleet lore by the time of Discovery's voyages. We first see the Vulcan saying introduced to Starfleet when T'Pol says it to Malcolm Reed during season 3 of Ent.

So, no need to see it as an "in-universe ad lib" by Tyler, because it can be argued that Starfleet personnel had been familiar with the saying for several yeas.

 

[Nightowl1701]

The context of the surrounding conversation in "Whom Gods Destroy" (TOS) is not the founding of the Federation, but rather the Axanar Peace Mission that followed (perhaps but not necessarily immediately) Garth of Izar's victory there:

CORY: Garth. Garth of Izar, the former starship fleet captain.
KIRK: When I was a cadet at the Academy, his exploits were required reading. He was one of my heroes. I'd like to see him, Donald.

[...]

KIRK: I studied your victory at Axanar when I was a cadet. In fact, it's still required reading at the Academy.
GARTH: As well it should be.
KIRK: Very well. But my first visit to Axanar was as a new-fledged cadet on a peace mission.
GARTH: Peace mission! Politicians and weaklings!
KIRK: They were humanitarians and statesmen, and they had a dream. A dream that became a reality and spread throughout the stars, a dream that made Mister Spock and me brothers.

It should be noted, with the context of DSC now added in: Whatever it was Garth of Izar did at Axanar - and against whom (clearly now it wasn't the Klingons) - happened before the current series. If Kirk was just starting out as a cadet when the battle and then peace mission occurred, it would have been five years ago now in DSC's 'present' time.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

It should be noted, with the context of DSC now added in: Whatever it was Garth of Izar did at Axanar - and against whom (clearly now it wasn't the Klingons) - happened before the current series. If Kirk was just starting out as a cadet when the battle and then peace mission occurred, it would have been five years ago now in DSC's 'present' time.

It should have already taken place with respect to DSC, absolutely. And most probably shouldn't be against the Klingons, no.

A few small quibbles, if we really wanted to drill down @Timo-style and wiggle as vigorously as humanly possible to pry open and preserve the most breathing room that can be had for ourselves...

I'm not entirely sure that in context "new-fledged cadet" couldn't mean recently-graduated cadet, i.e. it actually could have been green Ensign Kirk just out of the Academy who went to Axanar—perhaps aboard the Republic alongside Ben Finney and under the command of the same Captain Garrovick with whom Kirk would later transfer to the Farragut for his first true "deep space assignment"—after having studied Garth's preceding victory while still there. If so, that could make it as little as two years or so before DSC. If not, then another possibility could even be that the peace mission in question actually preceded the battle there, and Kirk had already been there on this little class field trip before he studied Garth's subsequent victory, with the latter becoming a hot topic as a current event after he'd gotten back.

Anderson in "The Vulcan Hello" mentioned some "fleeting run-ins" with Klingons, so it's barely possible that Axanar could have been one of those, so long as (almost) no one who lived to tell the tale actually saw a Klingon there, as opposed to just their ship(s). Or, since no specific opponent was mentioned, maybe Garth didn't even know who he was fighting?

I do not favor either of the above contortions as they seem ungainly and unnecessary, but they are perhaps just manageable should need arise. I have a post in the works for another thread with a more straightforward outline of Kirk's early service record as referred to in TOS, with all the complete quotes and references, as I've been re-watching and making a new attempt at it. Stay tuned...

In any case, DSC isn't heading for Axanar, barring non-linear storytelling, time travel shenanigans, or major retcons.

But Lorca could turn out to be Garth...

(Don't write me letters.)