Spoilers Tech issue with 1x06

[marsh8472]

You know, you had an opportunity to make a sensible point for once (hint: novels), but you blew it and came up with this nonsense instead. The TARDIS did not appear in ENT. Actual elements of TAS have been incorporated and canonized.

Novels were my second choice. Or I could have pointed out a logic fallacy for you. But if these are already points you are aware of, why force me educate you on canon 101? We don't know what elements of TAS are part of Star Trek. For another example, we know Robert April was a famous captain. But we don't know that he was the captain of the Enterprise or whether the "negative universe" exists. You can't make more out of it than it is.

 

[zar]

But if these are already points you are aware of, why force me educate you on canon 101?

You realize I'm not Kor, right?

No one is suggesting all of TAS is canon because ENT canonized parts of it. It became canon because CBS decided it was. But as we know, "because Marsh8472 says so" trumps that.

For another example, we know Robert April was a famous captain.

Yeah, we know this because DSC confirmed it.

Meanwhile, DSC also confirmed TAS rec-room tech. But that doesn't count, because Marsh8472 says so.

 

[marsh8472]

You realize I'm not Kor, right?

No one is suggesting all of TAS is canon because ENT canonized parts of it. It became canon because CBS decided it was. But as we know, "because Marsh8472 says so" trumps that.


Yeah, we know this because DSC confirmed it.

Meanwhile, DSC also confirmed TAS rec-room tech. But that doesn't count, because Marsh8472 says so.

Wrong here. You could say that if they said "Hey did you know Enterprise had a holodeck?" in a discovery episode. At best we can conclude that it's more likely that a holodeck existed on the enterprise given that we see one on Discovery. Because common sense (and I) said so.

 

[Kor]

Definitely wrong here. In enterprise episode "future tense" the time ship that was bigger on the inside than the outside was inspired by Doctor Who. But this does not make Doctor Who part of Star Trek canon

Kor

 

[zar]

Wrong here. You could say that if they said "Hey did you know Enterprise had a holodeck?" in a discovery episode. At best we can conclude that it's more likely that a holodeck existed on the enterprise given that we see one on Discovery. Because common sense (and I) said so.

That's a pretty silly distinction to point out, especially considering the fact that I didn't even say DSC confirmed the tech existed on the Enterprise, I said it confirmed the tech period... which it did.

And yes, common sense would indicate that something presented in an official Star Trek production constitutes canon, but we have the last several pages proving that you don't agree with common sense, so it's a little late to claim you do.

 

[Succubint]

In ENT 1x14, Reed uses a holoprojector to give Hoshi Sato a moving target to shoot her phaser at. This is a century before DISCO. The target is solid looking sphere which hovers and darts about in the air. It also registers hits, which Reed consults on his computer pad.

Holograms being used for battle simulations/target practice being canon many years before DISCO? Check.

 

[zar]

In ENT 1x14, Reed uses a holoprojector to give Hoshi Sato a moving target to shoot her phaser at. This is a century before DISCO. The target is solid looking sphere which hovers and darts about in the air. It also registers hits, which Reed consults on his computer pad.

Holograms being used for battle simulations/target practice being canon many years before DISCO? Check.

Uh oh.

I'll save you the trouble, @marsh8472 ...

Spoiler

 

[Succubint]

According to Wikipedia it's Ep 14, Sleeping dogs. It's also production number 114.

 

[Saul]

You guys...Using Enterprise and TAS to make your argument. **shakes heads**

It is enough that they included it back into their listings as before they were voided entirely.

I do not think that's enough to classify it as canon. It is enough to promote and sell more TAS DVDs though.

 

[marsh8472]

Episode "Harbinger" had that too. It's some kind of device that showed targets. They may have acquired those gadgets from another alien race like the Xyrillian too. That's different than holograms being common place, creating the illusion of larger space in a smaller room, or prospective changes like they are on Discovery. They've never mentioned holograms in the original series.

 

[Succubint]

Moving the goal posts. The point is that technology advances, it's not a static thing. We have a precedent in canon 100 years in the past, and in relatively contemporary times on TAS showing a beach landscape. Think of how much our own tech has advanced in 100 years. Heck even in the past 10 years. It's important to remember that TOS' Enterprise is an older ship than Discovery by a decade. It's not meant to be (to quote Admiral Cornwell) "the most technologically advanced ship in the fleet." Discovery is.

 

[Ithekro]

There is also the fact that they wanted to do a holographic room during TOS, but couldn't afford it back in 1969, so they did it instead in a cartoon in 1974.

 

[Nerys Myk]

You guys...Using Enterprise and TAS to make your argument. **shakes heads**

All the shows are valid.

 

[Tosk]

You guys...Using Enterprise and TAS to make your argument. **shakes heads**

All the shows are valid.

Plus, you don't need to use ENT or TAS to make the argument anyway. TNG never once said that the holographic environment simulator was brand new.

 

[marsh8472]

Moving the goal posts. The point is that technology advances, it's not a static thing. We have a precedent in canon 100 years in the past, and in relatively contemporary times on TAS showing a beach landscape. Think of how much our own tech has advanced in 100 years. Heck even in the past 10 years. It's important to remember that TOS' Enterprise is an older ship than Discovery by a decade. It's not meant to be (to quote Admiral Cornwell) "the most technologically advanced ship in the fleet." Discovery is.

Tucker had never seen anything like a holodeck until the Xyrillians showed it to him. Holographic interfaces were also common place on the USS Shenzhou and aboard the Klingon ships, but not anywhere in the original series or the movies.

LAFORGE: I think you're going to enjoy the twenty fourth century, Mister Scott. We've made some pretty incredible advances these last eighty years.
SCOTT: From what I've seen, you've got a fine ship, Mister La Forge. A real beauty here. I must admit to being a bit overwhelmed.
LAFORGE: Wait until you see the holodeck.

...

JANEWAY: It was a very different time, Mister Kim. Captain Sulu, Captain Kirk, Dr. McCoy. They all belonged to a different breed of Starfleet officer. Imagine the era they lived in. The Alpha Quadrant still largely unexplored. Humanity on verge of war with Klingons. Romulans hiding behind every nebula. Even the technology we take for granted was still in its early stages. No plasma weapons, no multiphasic shields. Their ships were half as fast.
KIM: No replicators, no holodecks. You know, ever since I took Starfleet history at the academy, I always wondered what it would be like to live in those days.

Most sites classify the animated series as "questionable canon". In otherwords, the rec room is a non-fact. Using a non-fact to prove the existence of a fact makes no sense.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

LAFORGE: Wait until you see the holodeck.

So what. Whenever I buy something new and want to impress someone, I use the same line.

"Wait until you see my car!"
"Wait until you see my computer!"
"Wait until you see my phone!"
"Wait until you see my house!"
etc...

It doesn't mean those things are new to the world.

Next:

KIM: No replicators, no holodecks. You know, ever since I took Starfleet history at the academy, I always wondered what it would be like to live in those days.

Kim is talking about something that took place about 80 years ago, so probably 60ish years before he was born. How much do you know (in depth) about the world of the 1950s and the tech of the time? How many people would say "There were no computers in the 50s"? They'd be as uninformed as Kim.

Lastly, not everyone on Star Trek must be an expert historian. I think Kim flunked Starfleet history at the academy.

 

[Tosk]

LAFORGE: Wait until you see the holodeck.

Yes, because it's impressive. As Riker himself said in the pilot.

KIM: No replicators, no holodecks.

Yes. No device known as a holodeck. Which doesn't preclude holography for training or communication etc. As you quoted yourself...

Even the technology we take for granted was still in its early stages.

 

[Jesse1066]

Video games as we know them today didn't exist until the 1970s, but early forms of video games existed as early as 1947, when a patent was filed for a "Cathode ray tube Amusement Device," and further advances were made in the fifties and sixties. Those devices were rare, expensive, and very, very primitive in comparison to what we have today, just as Discovery's simulator would be to Geordi or Harry Kim.
I happen to think it's entirely fitting that an early predecessor of the holodeck was created not for amusement but for military training. Military technology has always been a huge driving force for advancement of civilian technology.

 

[Ithekro]

The Rec Room was kind of awesome back in 2270, but I don't think it could do convincing personalities. It handled weather fairly well though, and could install pitfalls for some reason.

The alien holodeck in 2151 could do landscapes, water motion, possibly smells, but there was not evidence of lifeforms not included with the scenery.

The 2256 gunnery range on USS Discovery looks to be a limited use holoroom, at this time. The Klingons hold no more personality than an A.I. bot in a first person shooter that does waves of enemies.
Though there are some games today that have fairly advanced A.I. in how they react to the players and objectives. I've seen World of Warships A.I. intentionally ram a player when on low hp like a player might.

 

[marsh8472]

Yes, because it's impressive. As Riker himself said in the pilot.


Yes. No device known as a holodeck. Which doesn't preclude holography for training or communication etc. As you quoted yourself...

"Early stages" does not mean having a fully functional holodeck which hides the entire room, creates the illusion of depth and prospective. Geordie was talking in the context of technology advances in the last 80 years when he said "wait until you see the holodeck".

Memory alpha acknowledges that there has been no official word from CBS on whether the animated series is canon or not