Poll Thoughts on Ben Cumcumbers as Khan?

[SonOfUncleSam]

I didn't see Ving Rhames as Kojak. I don't know anything about Kojak, so I would withhold comment without further research.

I had no problem with Michael Clark Duncan as Kingpin. I thought he was a great Kingpin but the movie was not good. I think Vincent D'nafrio was the best at Kingpin by far.

Certain characters in the character description need to be a certain race or ethnicity, others not so much. Also, certain races and ethnicities can be close enough that it works. For example, I had no problem with James Caan playing Sonny Corleone although James Caan is Jewish, not Italian, because I didn't have a problem pretending James Caan was Italian. Kingpin's race or ethnicity I did not see as essential to the character. His size was far more important, which is why Michael Clark Duncan was a good choice for that role.

For example, Danny Rand as Iron Fist needs to be White, that is an important part of the character, just as Colossus from X-Men needs to be Russian (Bryan Singer messed that up big time, Deadpool got it right) and Storm needs to be African. You change that, you change the character too much. When it came to the main cast, JJ Abrahms got it right, Sulu was Asian, Scotty was Scottish, Chekov was Russian and so on. Which is why it was so disappointed they messed up Khan.

On the flip side, Denzel being cast as the Equalizer didn't bother me. I don't really follow Aquaman that close, but having Jason Momoa play him as far as I know is fine. For such characters their race or ethnicity is non-essential.

But if you have a character who goes by the name "Khan" he should be a brown man, most definitely. Khan has its historic roots in the real world as a title from the Mongols and successor states, as well as in Trek-lore. If there was a character called Pharaoh but they cast a Chinese actor I would also present a similar unease. Just like I wouldn't accept a Black Godfather because the Godfather should be an Italian or someone who can convincingly play and Italian.

Not all parts are the same, and for some of them the description includes a certain race or ethnicity. Benicio del Toro would be better cast for the part than Benedict Cumberbatch, but like I said I would go for someone ever browner like Naveen Andrews, because Ricardo Montalban was yes Latino, but as a Mexican I am guessing Mestizo and also a brown man, where as Benicio is more olive, but Cumberbatch is a pastry Brit and that doesn't work, even though he is a fine actor in his own right.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Khan was made in a lab. His skin colour is either a fluke byproduct or a deliberate choice by his designers.

And he was a Mexican brownfacing to pretend to be Indian who was supposed to be Sikh but wasn't and then 15 years later his skin was suddenly white and his followers Aryan without explanation. Now he's some British guy. Khan's backstory is a complete mess.

 

[SonOfUncleSam]

Khan was made in a lab. His skin colour is either a fluke byproduct or a deliberate choice by his designers.

And he was a Mexican brownfacing to pretend to be Indian who was supposed to be Sikh but wasn't and then 15 years later his skin was suddenly white and his followers Aryan without explanation. Now he's some British guy. Khan's backstory is a complete mess.

Sure Khan was made in a lab, but again, the title Khan has historic overtones, and there is an established cast for the character previous, which is why I mentioned both. Also Khan was said to control a quarter of planet (and was it explicitly said it was in Asia, I do not recall). Plus the fact that with Star Trek breaking down race barriers was an important legacy, having Uhura on the bridge crew at the time of Civil Rights, or having a Russian during the Cold War. In Khan's case the idea that a brown man could be intellectually an equal as a villain was a radical departure from most media of the day.

Most Mexicans are Brown because most Mexicans are Mestizo. It isn't brownfacing. It is similar to James Caan playing an Italian while really being Jewish going back to my earlier example, in other words within the same ballpark in terms of physical traits. Or for that matter Naveen Andrews playing an Iraqi (an Arab or Kurd) when he is Indian I believe. Again, close enough, in the same ball park, I could buy it. But if you had Benedict Cumberbatch playing Sayid on Lost, as an Iraqi, I wouldn't buy it.

 

[fireproof78]

Cumberbatch works fine as a genetically engineered villain, who has been altered by Admiral Marcus (part of the fiction creation) to disguise himself.

From an in world perspective, this makes sense, because the way that Khan was identified by TOS Kirk and Company was visual records. Altering his appearance makes perfects sense, and well within technological capabilities of the time.

 

[Ovation]

Sure Khan was made in a lab, but again, the title Khan has historic overtones, and there is an established cast for the character previous, which is why I mentioned both. Also Khan was said to control a quarter of planet (and was it explicitly said it was in Asia, I do not recall). Plus the fact that with Star Trek breaking down race barriers was an important legacy, having Uhura on the bridge crew at the time of Civil Rights, or having a Russian during the Cold War. In Khan's case the idea that a brown man could be intellectually an equal as a villain was a radical departure from most media of the day.

Most Mexicans are Brown because most Mexicans are Mestizo. It isn't brownfacing. It is similar to James Caan playing an Italian while really being Jewish going back to my earlier example, in other words within the same ballpark in terms of physical traits. Or for that matter Naveen Andrews playing an Iraqi (an Arab or Kurd) when he is Indian I believe. Again, close enough, in the same ball park, I could buy it. But if you had Benedict Cumberbatch playing Sayid on Lost, as an Iraqi, I wouldn't buy it.

Montalban was the son of Spanish immigrants, who were not descended of local Mexican ancestry, and thus far less "brown" than you appear to think (as evidenced by his appearance in TWOK--he wasn't "whitened", other than his hair, for the role).

Naveen Andrews would have been an excellent choice, based on his acting talent alone. However (and this is partly speculation on my part as I've not delved into behind the scenes info), it appears Cumberbatch was cast before Khan was finalized as the character (makes sense--del Toro would not have been a "better" choice in 2013, but rather a continuation of the Montalban choice of 1967/82). At that point, once the decision to make the character Khan was finalized, the in-universe "Harrison was a fiction created by Marcus" is all that is needed to deal with the different appearance (accent-wise, a British accent makes more sense than an hispanic one, to a considerable degree). I think if the decision to use Khan was settled very early, a different casting choice would have been made. But, given the indecision, there was enough cover ("a fiction created"; created in a lab in 20th century) to make Cumberbatch a valid choice.

 

[SonOfUncleSam]

Montalban was the son of Spanish immigrants, who were not descended of local Mexican ancestry, and thus far less "brown" than you appear to think (as evidenced by his appearance in TWOK--he wasn't "whitened", other than his hair, for the role).

Naveen Andrews would have been an excellent choice, based on his acting talent alone. However (and this is partly speculation on my part as I've not delved into behind the scenes info), it appears Cumberbatch was cast before Khan was finalized as the character (makes sense--del Toro would not have been a "better" choice in 2013, but rather a continuation of the Montalban choice of 1967/82). At that point, once the decision to make the character Khan was finalized, the in-universe "Harrison was a fiction created by Marcus" is all that is needed to deal with the different appearance (accent-wise, a British accent makes more sense than an hispanic one, to a considerable degree). I think if the decision to use Khan was settled very early, a different casting choice would have been made. But, given the indecision, there was enough cover ("a fiction created"; created in a lab in 20th century) to make Cumberbatch a valid choice.

So perhaps I stand corrected and Ricardo was made more Brown. Still, as one from Spaniard decent, he is then olive and olive is closer to brown than white is.
I must have missed the part of Into Darkness where they mentioned Khan was altered by Marcus. Can you give me a bit more info on that?

 

[Ovation]

So perhaps I stand corrected and Ricardo was made more Brown. Still, as one from Spaniard decent, he is then olive and olive is closer to brown than white is.
I must have missed the part of Into Darkness where they mentioned Khan was altered by Marcus. Can you give me a bit more info on that?

In the brig, after the torpedo had been opened by McCoy and Carol Marcus, the following exchange occurs:

KIRK: I looked up John Harrison. Until a year ago, he didn't exist.
HARRISON: John Harrison was a fiction created the moment I was awoken by your Admiral Marcus to help him advance his cause. A smokescreen to conceal my true identity. My name is Khan.

It's the 23rd century and it's certainly a high tech environment. No need to Spell. It. Out. However any viewer chooses to interpret Khan's words, surgical alteration has to be high on the list of probabilities.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Most Mexicans are Brown because most Mexicans are Mestizo. It isn't brownfacing. It is similar to James Caan playing an Italian while really being Jewish going back to my earlier example, in other words within the same ballpark in terms of physical traits. Or for that matter Naveen Andrews playing an Iraqi (an Arab or Kurd) when he is Indian I believe. Again, close enough, in the same ball park, I could buy it. But if you had Benedict Cumberbatch playing Sayid on Lost, as an Iraqi, I wouldn't buy it.

How is it not brownfacing for a white-skinned Mexican to wear brown facepaint to portray someone's idea of an Indian Sikh?

 

[SonOfUncleSam]

How is it not brownfacing for a white-skinned Mexican to wear brown facepaint to portray someone's idea of an Indian Sikh?

Well, A) I said I stand corrected because I believed falsely that as a Mexican he had Americano-Indian ancestry. Now I stand corrected. B) Ricardo's Khan had certain markers that resembled an Indian Sikh, but I do not believe at any time there was any dialogue that identified Khan as a Sikh, other than his last name Singh, which is commonly associated with Sikhs but has spread to other faiths and is found in South Asia, Southeast Asia and Indonesia. Therefor Khan Singh is until otherwise specified, a character I would say is generically South Asian or Southeast Asian. My original thought with Ricardo being Mestizo was that those of American Indian descent were closer to South Asian physical features than distant. Of course, now I know a little more.

But that being said the distance between olive "Mediterranean" types are closer in resemblance to South Asians than white British types. So even if not perfect, it was closer than Into Darkness (Into Whiteness?). Brownfacing is a pretty loaded term, because I didn't take Khan to be a mockery or a deliberate negative portrayal of a culture. Khan was a villain for sure, but intelligent, charming, and ultimately loyal to his people which gives him a type of nobility. As far as villains go, the portrayal by Ricardo was excellent and in my view a greater push for the cause of diversity rather than a racist trope. (Not a question of either or, but more this than that, so there is some trope-y-ness to it, but I think the positives outweigh that, and keep in mind it was the 1960s that saw the birth of the character, so it moved the needle in a forward direction where as in 2013 the needle for default had moved from the 1960s, so this white-washing was not good) But hey, that is my two cents.

Casting isn't always and exact science, but it isn't a crap shoot either. I'm Puerto Rican, a Latino, and I get annoyed that Antonio Banderas, a Spaniard, always plays a Latino/Mexican, but that one I chuck up to my personal politics, because Banderas CAN play a Latino (I just don't like that he does, and is often mistaken for one, or that Hollywood casts a Spaniard rather than give a job to a Latino). I don't know how many movies about Puerto Ricans have been made casting Italians (but again, just like above that has more to do with my take on politics more so than saying these actors CAN'T play Ricans, just questioning if they should or if there is a better choice).

But yeah, having a pastry Brit play Khan isn't even close, not even remotely.

I suppose it could be inferred he was cosmetically altered, but I think that is stretching it a bit beyond intent.

But I think on top of all of that, most people liked Ricardo's portrayal of Khan and it has received high acclaim. Once you have a role as iconic like that, and the franchise painstakingly recast all the original crew with good younger equivalents, having Cumberbatch as Khan just seems so glaring and off from that iconic role. It isn't Cumberbatch's fault, he did a great job, but he was miscast. I think the solution was to cast someone who was more South Asian, or closer to Ricardo, or just have Cumberbatch be a different character.

 

[fireproof78]

I suppose it could be inferred he was cosmetically altered, but I think that is stretching it a bit beyond intent.

It really isn't since comics explored the idea that he was surgically altered by Section 31, and IDW worked closely with Kurzeman, I believe.

 

[SonOfUncleSam]

It really isn't since comics explored the idea that he was surgically altered by Section 31, and IDW worked closely with Kurzeman, I believe.

And how is the average movie-goer supposed to know that? I didn't hear about that until now.

OK, no on screen explanation, only inference. But even so, then that was a bad story twist. They mess up by making such a radical departure. BTW, incidentally I was on Youtube last week, looking for things about Discovery before it came out. I came across Tarantino basically chiming in on how he was on board with the new Star Treks until they made Benedict Khan which "ruined it". I am only a fan of Tarantino's earlier work, so I don't hold him up as Gospel, just saying obviously there are a lot of folks who have a similar take on it that I do.

 

[Ovation]

I really think the shift from Harrison, augment agent gone rogue to Harrison, secretly Khan, happened after casting, so they did what they could. Still, surgical alteration is such an easy inference to make, I was surprised it didn't take as a general assumption.

Had Khan been intended from the beginning (clearly, it wasn't), then I would have been far less sanguine about Cumberbatch in the role (despite my appreciation of his talent). IF they ever revisit Khan in this continuity, I guess a 30 second flashback might be in order, though probably too late to assuage critics.

 

[SonOfUncleSam]

I really think the shift from Harrison, augment agent gone rogue to Harrison, secretly Khan, happened after casting, so they did what they could. Still, surgical alteration is such an easy inference to make, I was surprised it didn't take as a general assumption.

Had Khan been intended from the beginning (clearly, it wasn't), then I would have been far less sanguine about Cumberbatch in the role (despite my appreciation of his talent). IF they ever revisit Khan in this continuity, I guess a 30 second flashback might be in order, though probably too late to assuage critics.

Yeah, I am saying it boils down to A) It wasn't done right (that way they did it with inference and all) and B) It should have never been done in the first place (making him a white Brit).

 

[fireproof78]

Yeah, I am saying it boils down to A) It wasn't done right (that way they did it with inference and all) and B) It should have never been done in the first place (making him a white Brit).

I'm not saying its set in stone or that my opinion is somehow the only one. But, the moment I found out he was Khan, my first thought was "Oh, they changed his appearance." Then the dialog seemed to confirm it. I don't need everything told to me, so it didn't bother me. Given that del Toro's casting fell through last minute, it doesn't strike me as odd that they went with who they could get at the time that fit the menace that they wanted.

The use of Khan is a mixed bag for me, not because of the casting, but because I'm tired of TWOK being the gold standard, and Khan being the perfect villain.

 

[Nerys Myk]

A) I said I stand corrected because I believed falsely that as a Mexican he had Americano-Indian ancestry. Now I stand corrected. B) Ricardo's Khan had certain markers that resembled an Indian Sikh, but I do not believe at any time there was any dialogue that identified Khan as a Sikh, other than his last name Singh, which is commonly associated with Sikhs but has spread to other faiths and is found in South Asia, Southeast Asia and Indonesia. Therefor Khan Singh is until otherwise specified, a character I would say is generically South Asian or Southeast Asian.

McGivers identifies him a Sikh in Space Seed

MARLA: From the northern India area, I'd guess. Probably a Sikh. They were the most fantastic warriors.

 

[SonOfUncleSam]

McGivers identifies him a Sikh in Space Seed

Great catch. I didn't remember that. But that is curious. Is that supposed to be his religion or ethnicity? Especially considering he is a test tube creation.

 

[SonOfUncleSam]

I'm not saying its set in stone or that my opinion is somehow the only one. But, the moment I found out he was Khan, my first thought was "Oh, they changed his appearance." Then the dialog seemed to confirm it. I don't need everything told to me, so it didn't bother me. Given that del Toro's casting fell through last minute, it doesn't strike me as odd that they went with who they could get at the time that fit the menace that they wanted.

The use of Khan is a mixed bag for me, not because of the casting, but because I'm tired of TWOK being the gold standard, and Khan being the perfect villain.

And JJ's use of it was particularly corny in my opinion. It added nothing to the story, in fact it detracted from it. They should have just created a new character, IMHO

 

[fireproof78]

And JJ's use of it was particularly corny in my opinion. It added nothing to the story, in fact it detracted from it. They should have just created a new character, IMHO

New character would have been better, but Cumberbatch as Khan was fine by me.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Great catch. I didn't remember that. But that is curious. Is that supposed to be his religion or ethnicity? Especially considering he is a test tube creation.

Makes little sense either way.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

I don't think the idea of Khan as a superman was conceived by writers as a "test tube" creation when written in "Space Seed", but simply a product of controlled breeding, as that's what eugenics is. Keep in mind this was only two decades after WWII and eugenics was still very fresh in the minds of people during that era. The test tube sci-fi stuff only factored in later incarnations, most explicitly that Augment trilogy in ENTERPRISE.

Funnily, I tend to forget that the Khan character was likely born in the 60s. Of course, makers of TOS never conceived the idea that people would be having these discussions of a fictional TV character 50 years later.