"Burnham’s choice...affects Starfleet, affects the Federation; it affects the entire universe..."

[Jadeb]

The weird thing is the overly emotional nature of all her pivotal choices. Based on the premise they've created, I would expect they'd create conflict by having her crew bristle at stoic decisions they couldn't understand, especially from a human. Maybe she makes a logical call with a terrible emotional cost, a la Galileo 7. For example, she could have chosen to sacrifice her captain for the greater good. But there's nothing logical about her. So far I'm not sure why they've given her the Vulcan background, other than to force Sarek in. I hope this goes somewhere soon. Seems like a thematic mess so far.

 

[BillJ]

Unfortunately, unless the writers understood the mistakes they made in the first two episodes, these are the characters and their paper thin characterizations and motives we are stuck with. Because they won't be able to make adjustments based on audience feedback, as they are done with filming from what I understand.

 

[Michael]

“Paper thin characterizations and motives we are stuck with”? This is an ongoing series. Of course they will add to the characterizations as they go. They might even tweak and change details of the their characterizations in the process. All shows do this – including all the previous Star Trek series.

 

[Mudd]

They're about done shooting for the year. For the next thirteen episodes we'll get whatever they came up with before a single outside viewer had seen the show.

 

[Fateor]

They're about done shooting for the year. For the next thirteen episodes we'll get whatever they came up with before a single outside viewer had seen the show.

Moral of this story, there's a reason shows do mid series breaks in filming.

 

[Noname Given]

But it's just her speculation that killing T'Kuvma would make him a martyr in the Klingons' eyes and further the possibility of a war. She doesn't know that; it's anything but a certainty to her. So I think it's a stretch to talk about what she did as a “universe changing mistake”, when we the audience know the Klingons wanted to have a war anyway.

Just like it was speculation that a "Vulcan Hello" was the only way to defuse the situation and save everyone. Again, THAT'S what she believed wholeheartedly to be the case; and I do think that's how the character sees her rash and emotional action made TK'uvma a martyr - and as a result started a war that the Klingons will go all out to 'win'.

It doesn't matter what we the audience know - none of the ST: D characters have that knowledge.

It wasn't, she would have never been allowed to join Starfleet with PTSD and grew up surrounded by telepaths.

ORLY?

- It seems Starfleet didn't catch the psychosis of Captain Garth until AFTER said captain (who was one of Starfleet's finest; and whose prior military actions were still required reading when Kirk attended the Academy.

- And you might want to go watch TOS - "The Omega Glory" to see another fine upstanding Captain (Ron Tracey) who slipped through the 23rd century screening process.

- Lastly, no, Vulcans are not true telepaths. They have some telepathic abilities yes, but they can'y read minds without using touch (a Mind Meld); and even then, they don't have much experience with Human mental states, so it's doubtful they would see anything abnormal in Burnham, or be able to recognize it if they did (IE For all they know, that's 'normal' for Humans.) And even if they did, they at most concentrated on teaching Vulcan methods to suppress such feelings and emotions and may have thought they succeeded.

 

[BillJ]

Just like it was speculation that a "Vulcan Hello" was the only way to defuse the situation and save everyone. Again, THAT'S what she believed wholeheartedly to be the case; and I do think that's how the character sees her rash and emotional action made TK'uvma a martyr - and as a result started a war that the Klingons will go all out to 'win'.

I think that was another thing that bothered me. Georgiou rejected the Vulcan Hello, yet after putting her in the brig for mutiny, has no problem buying into her reading of what would happen if they killed T'Whothehellcares.

 

[Noname Given]

I think that was another thing that bothered me. Georgiou rejected the Vulcan Hello, yet after putting her in the brig for mutiny, has no problem buying into her reading of what would happen if they killed T'Whothehellcares.

Showing clearly that Georgiou wan't an idiot. AFTER she saw what T'Kuvma did - (IE He agreed to a parley and then had one of his cloaked ships ram and destroy the U.S.S. Europa and KILL the Admiral he acceptyed the parley offer from) - the 'Soldier' in her realized diplomacy wasn't going to work (and even further perhaps realized Burnham MIGHT have been correct in wanting to give a "Vulcan Hello" after all.)

 

[BillJ]

Showing clearly that Georgiou wan't an idiot.

Showing that Georgiou was there to be an impediment when needed.

 

[Noname Given]

Showing that Georgiou was there to be an impediment when needed.

No, she wan't an impediment. Until the Europa was destroyed and the Admiral killed (IE she saw the T'Kuvma's word was no good); she truly believed that 'shooting' was not a way to open diplomatic relations. The Federation had NEVER before encountered a civilization who thought the way the Klingons did, and probably believed that "Intelligence" + "Spacefaring tech" = "A Civilization that will be open to peaceful diplomacy because hey, who wants to die in combat?'

The Human's inability to believe that there would be an advanced race that sees battle as glorious and the only way to achieve 'Heaven' (aka 'Stovo Kor for the Klingons) is what led to this situation (If everytime a Federation ship of Humans didn't include in the hail "We come in peace" everywhere they went T'Kuvma would have any 'ammo' to get the Klingon Council to come together and unite in a War against the Federation.

The start of the war was brought on by a century of Humans thinking every advanced Humanoid culture had values similar to theirs.

 

[Mudd]

Showing that Georgiou was there to be an impediment when needed.

Yes.

There's really no indication that Georgiou came to the conclusion that shooting preemptively at the Klingon ship in an attempt to ward it off would have been the better path - which is reasonable, since there's no evidence provided in the show that it would have been.

 

[BillJ]

There's really no indication that Georgiou came to the conclusion that shooting preemptively at the Klingon ship in an attempt to ward it off would have been the better path - which is reasonable, since there's no evidence provided in the show that it would have been.

I agree. But she didn't even try to confirm Burnham's information. She just continued to mutter that Starfleet doesn't shoot first. If Burnham can get Sarek on the line in a little under a second. Georgiou should've been able to seek out information that would either confirm on reject Burnham's idea.

 

[Noname Given]

I agree. But she didn't even try to confirm Burnham's information. She just continued to mutter that Starfleet doesn't shoot first. If Burnham can get Sarek on the line in a little under a second. Georgiou should've been able to seek out information that would either confirm on reject Burnham's idea.

Burnham explained the Vulcan history of how the Vulcans dealt with the Kingons after loosing one ship, etc. I never had the impression that Georgiou doubt what Burnham was saying was not true; (IE - Yes, that IS how the Vulcans handled the klingons...); bujt again, she was a Starfleet officer - and she may have felt that in this situation (and she may have even agreed with Burnham's earlier assessment that this could be a setup or some sort of 'test'); that IF the Klingons wanted a war, she wasn't going to be the one who gave them the excuse for it.

This CLEARLY was a no win situation (we the audience know that because we're seeing both sides); and Georgiou may have realized that, but again, she was going to do everything she could to find a diplomatic solution. Once Georgiou saw gthat wasn't possible, she llet her soldier side take over and she took the actions she did to try and capture T'Kurma and see if that would give the Federation 'leverage' to end the war before it progressed further.

 

[Mr Awe]

Unfortunately, unless the writers understood the mistakes they made in the first two episodes, these are the characters and their paper thin characterizations and motives we are stuck with. Because they won't be able to make adjustments based on audience feedback, as they are done with filming from what I understand.

Holy cow! Give the show some time Encounter at Farpoint had paper thin characterization and dull as shit!

Right now we're just starting to know the characters.

 

[Mr Awe]

They're about done shooting for the year. For the next thirteen episodes we'll get whatever they came up with before a single outside viewer had seen the show.

Pretty much par for the course.

We'll have to wait and see how things develop. Too early to tell now.

 

[Fateor]

- It seems Starfleet didn't catch the psychosis of Captain Garth until AFTER said captain (who was one of Starfleet's finest; and whose prior military actions were still required reading when Kirk attended the Academy.

Garth's insanity was caused by the cellular metamorphosis technique taught to him by the inhabitants of Antos IV, an insanity I will note that was discovered upon his return from Antos IV and caused him to be committed.

- And you might want to go watch TOS - "The Omega Glory" to see another fine upstanding Captain (Ron Tracey) who slipped through the 23rd century screening process.

You mean the guy who was perfectly sane until he was stranded on a planet and infected by an alien bio-weapon?

- Lastly, no, Vulcans are not true telepaths. They have some telepathic abilities yes, but they can'y read minds without using touch (a Mind Meld); and even then, they don't have much experience with Human mental states, so it's doubtful they would see anything abnormal in Burnham, or be able to recognize it if they did (IE For all they know, that's 'normal' for Humans.) And even if they did, they at most concentrated on teaching Vulcan methods to suppress such feelings and emotions and may have thought they succeeded.

That's just not true, while touch helps focus their abilities Vulcans can in fact read the minds of people at a range.

See Spock knocking someone out through a wall.

 

[Mr Awe]

Burnham explained the Vulcan history of how the Vulcans dealt with the Kingons after loosing one ship, etc. I never had the impression that Georgiou doubt what Burnham was saying was not true; (IE - Yes, that IS how the Vulcans handled the klingons...); bujt again, she was a Starfleet officer - and she may have felt that in this situation (and she may have even agreed with Burnham's earlier assessment that this could be a setup or some sort of 'test'); that IF the Klingons wanted a war, she wasn't going to be the one who gave them the excuse for it.

This CLEARLY was a no win situation (we the audience know that because we're seeing both sides); and Georgiou may have realized that, but again, she was going to do everything she could to find a diplomatic solution. Once Georgiou saw gthat wasn't possible, she llet her soldier side take over and she took the actions she did to try and capture T'Kurma and see if that would give the Federation 'leverage' to end the war before it progressed further.

That's exactly right. Georgiou wasn't going to fire first out of principle. That makes complete sense for a Star Fleet captain. However, after T'Kumva broke the truce she had sufficient reason to take offensive actions. Again, that makes complete sense for a Star Fleet captain. For all we know, Star Fleet might have a standing order to not fire first.

 

[Kevin Wolff]

Moral of this story, there's a reason shows do mid series breaks in filming.

True, but that only works in the formulaic approach when they can shift focus from ep to ep. We can't help them course correct a serialized season long story arc although the Lords of Kobol know I wish we could. I'd vote the whole writers' room out the proverbial airlock.

 

[Kevin Wolff]

I agree. But she didn't even try to confirm Burnham's information. She just continued to mutter that Starfleet doesn't shoot first. If Burnham can get Sarek on the line in a little under a second. Georgiou should've been able to seek out information that would either confirm on reject Burnham's idea.

Exactly, Seriously, she should have conferenced him into the ready room instead of evading her captain in a crisis situation and then effectively burning the only logical bridge she had by assaulting her captain. What she did was so far from logic and she should be in jail. But not for life. Maybe the Klingons are right about Starfleet.

 

[Kevin Wolff]

(we the audience know that because we're seeing both sides)

Therein lies the problem. We weren't experiencing the drama as it unfolded. We were all-knowing as the audience that Burnham was right and that the captain could only act in opposition. That is terrible writing. The story is for us. We're supposed to feel the risk, the gravitas, and not see from miles away the only way it could play out.