Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x02 - "Battle at the Binary Stars"

[Lakenheath 72]

I am less inclined to think that the attitudes of two or three captains is reflective of the viewpoints of all captains in the fleet. It is clear in the evidence that even Starfleet is conflicted about the PD.

A prop made for ST:ID and seen in the Star Trek Encyclopedia has the text of the PD. It reads,

As the rights of each sentience species to live in accordance with the normal cultural evolution is considered sacred, no Starfleet personnel may interfere with the normal and healthy development of alien life and culture.
Such interference includes introducing superior knowledge, strength, or technology to a world whose society is incapable of handling such advantages wisely.
Starfleet personnel may not violate the Prime Directive even to save their lives and/or their ship, unless they are acting to right an earlier violation or an accidental contamination of said culture. This directive takes precedence over any and all other considerations, and carries with it the highest moral obligation.
In orders, seen in "Conspiracy", captains could, upon evaluation of a civilization - in this case, Gamma Argus II - make first contact with a pre-warp civilizaiton.

About the PD, what is the definition of "normal"? We see this discussion in "The Apple" and other episodes where Captain Kirk violates the PD.

 

[Noname Given]

You mean like every unknown Vulcan power Spock suddenly remembered he had in TOS?

Ever since Spock felt the death cry of over 400 Vulcans on the Intrepid, light years away, I've more or less had to accept as canon there are some things about Vulcan mysticism that really work, and work at FTL speeds. Fortunately, it does seem to be extremely limited and so not a reliable power a Vulcan may call upon. Such powers tend to get in the way to many traditional story lines.

You know, I can't believe I forgot about that from TOS - "The Immunity Syndrome"...so yeah, the whole Sarek/Burnham Katra connection ain't that far fetched...wow.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Seriously, DS9 hyped his 5 instances of time travel in TOS to 17, but in the ones we know, I don't see how anything was really Kirk's fault or only came about by ignoring rules or showing bad judgment.

He came across as pretty incompetent in Assignment Earth. Not to mention The Voyage Home, where he lands in a busy park, wanders around in Starfleet uniform, alters the history of transparent aluminum and flat out tells people about the future...

 

[JRTStarlight]

And that just reinforces my point that the PD was not enforced or perceived the same back in Kirk's time. What you write proves that it wasn't just Kirk's attitude but, in fact, Star Fleet's.

I don't think I'm stating this well. The prime directive had and probably has many exceptions, many of which we (the audience) are not fully aware. This idea Kirk is bending the rule seems wrong so much as he knows the exceptions. And I'm not sure Picard or others "follow" it better, or more rigidly, inasmuch as maybe those exceptions didn't apply to those times. As silly and as contrived as Wesley's violation of local law resulting in a death sentence, it was more of a violation of the PD than what Kirk did. But Picard recognized the fact that no rule of law could ever apply to all situations and always expect to obtain justice, and the god-like powers agreed with him enough to allow them to leave. StarFleet might have felt differently, but since a god-like power was overseeing that culture, the ultimate responsibility for that culture lay there and would not fall to the Federation or any meddling they did.

I'd have to discuss each instance on a case-by-case basis, however, to judge how it obeyed or deviated from the PD. I feel any blanket statement that this captain or that captain always did a better/worse job at adhering to the PD, which we honestly don't have the full text of anyway, to be reaching beyond our feeble capacity to judge.

 

[JRTStarlight]

He came across as pretty incompetent in Assignment Earth. Not to mention The Voyage Home, where he lands in a busy park, wanders around in Starfleet uniform, alters the history of transparent aluminum and flat out tells people about the future...

He was ordered there in Assignment Earth, so most anything that happened there in time wasn't his fault. And in Voyage Home, their dress was hardly so outlandish that it drew much attention. The park was sort of a stupid place to park - so he probably took the signs there too literally. But still, he got away with it. The biggest offense would be the transparent aluminum. If you can justify that, then you can explain how we got artificial gravity or a host of other technological advances, and that would seem to be a violation of the TD (which were not written at that time). But then without it, the earth would have had no significant future since the probe would have destroyed all life on Earth, so I'm sure many on earth will look the other way when it saves all of earth from destruction.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

He was ordered there in Assignment Earth, so most anything that happened there in time wasn't his fault. And in Voyage Home, their dress was hardly so outlandish that it drew much attention. The park was sort of a stupid place to park - so he probably took the signs there too literally. But still, he got away with it. The biggest offense would be the transparent aluminum. If you can justify that, then you can explain how we got artificial gravity or a host of other technological advances, and that would seem to be a violation of the TD (which were not written at that time). But then without it, the earth would have had no significant future since the probe would have destroyed all life on Earth, so I'm sure many on earth will look the other way when it saves all of earth from destruction.

He was ordered in A:E, but he still badly mishandled the entire situation. And I agree people in general would be happy to look the other way for most of his history as we know it, simply because he did do so many great things (like save earth). But those temporal affairs guys were hard nosers who took their rules seriously, so they would hold him responsible for every violation regardless (especially since he's really just a mental exercise to them, anyway, since they didn't even exist while he was still around).

 

[Ometiklan]

Every one of those instances was reviewed by StarFleet Command and Kirk was judged to have acted appropriately. Therefore, there was no violation of the Prime Directive. It may have seemed so, or like he was skirting GO #1, but he never crossed the line in StarFleet's opinion...

We can't say via evidence provided on screen that Starfleet okayed Kirk's actions, but, at best, I can agree that it's implied that they did since he was never court martialed for them (and he was court martialed for the death of a single crewman once ("Court Martial").

That said, just because he was ordered somewhere (for example, the very questionable orders in "Assignment Earth" which is a terrible episode all around) doesn't mean he is off the hook for a violation. GO#1 is the "top" order in Starfleet. Even if he has an admiral, commodore, or ambassador screaming over his shoulder (as in "A Taste of Armageddon") he has a duty to maintain GO#1 and not follow the illegal order. If he does violate it, then both he and the person who gave him the order should be in trouble.

He came across as pretty incompetent in Assignment Earth. Not to mention The Voyage Home, where he lands in a busy park, wanders around in Starfleet uniform, alters the history of transparent aluminum and flat out tells people about the future...

Hey but at least the person who he told about the future, he then took to the future. That fixes it, right?

Oh, one more point, I don't think we should interpret the Temporal Investigation guys as having "exaggerated" Kirk's number of violations. I think the total of 17 reflects his overall service record, including the second five-year mission and other missions that aren't currently depicted in canon.

 

[Mad Jack Wolfe]

KIRK: Order acknowledged. Kirk out. Mister Kyle [why does Shatner call him "Cowell" throughout this episode???], you heard the order. Set course for Gamma Seven-A, warp five.

You say "Kyle". The Shat says "Cowell".

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[137th Gebirg]

Yeah, it's the Canadian accent popping out there. Watch him struggle to say "Nazis" in "Patterns of Force".

 

[Ometiklan]

So two more thoughts:
First, I just rewatched the two episodes again, and paid specific attention to the scene with Burnham and Sarek in the long-distance mindmeld. I had in mind the group review/discussion from TrekMovie's Shuttle Pod At The Disco where they criticized the scene for having Sarek "lampshade" that he 'didn't just call to boost her self-esteem' but then doing just that. But reviewing the scene, it is Burnham who says he wasn't one to give her pep talks, and he responds that if so then that was his mistake as her tutor. So I guess I was a little relieved to see that that criticism was unfounded.

Second point - because I am looking for more Trek to devour, and am apparently a masochist, I decided to try out "Midnight's Edge" Pilot Review and Roundtable Discussion of Discovery. After listening to one episode of their terrible pre-premiere coverage, I didn't expect their review to be any different, but I was still a little surprised. Outside of their personal opinions about whether someone's performance was good or bad (and they all say Yeoh and SMG were terrible) for which there is no objective truth, they don't seem to have approached Discovery with any real "judge it on it's own merits" perspective. They claim to have tried, but in their review, they ignore clearly stated dialog, are totally unwilling to accept any of the visual changes, and basically jump to the most critical interpretation of any given element of the show. As I said before, I didn't really expect much different, but I had hoped. It seems they brought the conclusions they made based on production issues and couldn't shake them when looking at the show itself. For people who claim to be Star Trek fans, I had hoped that they might see some positive aspects of the show, see some true Star Trek elements even if they disliked the 'packaging', but they did not. I guess this is the part that I don't understand the most - shouldn't fans of a property be able to find something in their favored property that they like even if they don't like it overall? For example, I wonder if there are any Star Wars fans that (A) find nothing of value in episodes 1-3, and (B) don't consider them to be Star Wars? Anyway, if anyone else thought that Midnight's Edge might provide some good analysis and thought about Discovery, they didn't - don't bother watching.

 

[Mr Awe]

That said, just because he was ordered somewhere (for example, the very questionable orders in "Assignment Earth" which is a terrible episode all around) doesn't mean he is off the hook for a violation. GO#1 is the "top" order in Starfleet. Even if he has an admiral, commodore, or ambassador screaming over his shoulder (as in "A Taste of Armageddon") he has a duty to maintain GO#1 and not follow the illegal order. If he does violate it, then both he and the person who gave him the order should be in trouble.

Just be ordered somewhere doesn't mean that he can do whatever he wants.

I think the exceptions that are most valid are when they run across cases where the PD has already been violated, caused problems, and they clean up the mess.

 

[DigificWriter]

For example, I wonder if there are any Star Wars fans that (A) find nothing of value in episodes 1-3, and (B) don't consider them to be Star Wars?

Yes, and they're an "incredibly vocal minority".

 

[GeekUSACarl]

For people who claim to be Star Trek fans, I had hoped that they might see some positive aspects of the show, see some true Star Trek elements even if they disliked the 'packaging', but they did not.

Frankly I find this to exist among show watchers and film viewers as a whole. I also find it very sad. The package that makes a show or a film is a lot like a house, there is a multitude of skilled craftsmen and women that go into putting it together. Way too often, people will simply lump the entire show into whatever issue hit their biggest pet peeve.

What no phasers? the directing sucks, the acting sucks, the writing sucks, IT ALL SUCKS.

There are clearly Trek elements in the show though, maybe not my FAVORITE trek elements. It's hard to ignore that there are some positives about the show.

 

[Longinus]

For example, I wonder if there are any Star Wars fans that (A) find nothing of value in episodes 1-3, and (B) don't consider them to be Star Wars?

Not the best example, it is pretty much a consensus opinion that those films were utter shite.

Only good thing about them was that they helped me to recalibrate my expectations so that I was actually positively surprised by the Force Awakens.

As for the point in general, that one is a fan of certain parts of the franchise in no way means that they have some sort of responsibility to like other parts of it.

 

[JRTStarlight]

He was ordered in A:E, but he still badly mishandled the entire situation. And I agree people in general would be happy to look the other way for most of his history as we know it, simply because he did do so many great things (like save earth). But those temporal affairs guys were hard nosers who took their rules seriously, so they would hold him responsible for every violation regardless (especially since he's really just a mental exercise to them, anyway, since they didn't even exist while he was still around).

Hard nosers? Hardly. One of those guys actually said he would have probably risked what Sisko did (which was stupid) just to meet Kirk, too. They just seemed more annoyed at the amount of paperwork their job entails, and Kirk gave/gives them more than his fair share.

We can't say via evidence provided on screen that Starfleet okayed Kirk's actions, but, at best, I can agree that it's implied that they did since he was never court martialed for them (and he was court martialed for the death of a single crewman once ("Court Martial").

Sure, we didn't "see" it, but since Kirk continued on and even made admiral, the implication is so strong I would think any other interpretation would be quite perverse.

That said, just because he was ordered somewhere (for example, the very questionable orders in "Assignment Earth" which is a terrible episode all around) doesn't mean he is off the hook for a violation. GO#1 is the "top" order in Starfleet. Even if he has an admiral, commodore, or ambassador screaming over his shoulder (as in "A Taste of Armageddon") he has a duty to maintain GO#1 and not follow the illegal order. If he does violate it, then both he and the person who gave him the order should be in trouble.

For Assignment Earth, I meant he was ordered there in time, and we're not talking about GO #1 (and the Temporal Prime Directive didn't exist yet). But mostly, what you say sounds reasonable, but unless you are also saying what Fox did was clearly an illegal order I don't see how it ever applies to anything Kirk did. Yes, AToA was against the wishes of that planet's government, but Fox clearly had authorization from StarFleet to establish contact "no matter what" and Kirk had no authority to disobey orders (I mean he could have, but legally, Fox could have relieved him of command and then insisted Spock take them in). Kirk didn't want to go, yet since Fox forced him, I think it's clear if he had a legal leg to stand on he would have used it. I suspect if most of the command staff just refused Fox's order, they'd go to a starbase, the mission would fail, and then each of them would have received a court martial for disobeying a direct order from StarFleet command's representative on that mission.

Hey but at least the person who he told about the future, he then took to the future. That fixes it, right?

It was less of a contamination problem, yeah. We can only hope she made no relavant contribution in the past and Kirk made a new timeline, but considering her work, she had clearly failed in saving the whales then and seemed out of a job, so she wasn't exactly in a great position to effect social change.

Oh, one more point, I don't think we should interpret the Temporal Investigation guys as having "exaggerated" Kirk's number of violations. I think the total of 17 reflects his overall service record, including the second five-year mission and other missions that aren't currently depicted in canon.

I meant more the writers did that for a laugh, but as canon, yeah, we should accept in Kirk's career, which is longer than what we've seen, he racked up those points. And we should also assume he was right to do so, or StarFleet ultimately was fine with what he did.

 

[DigificWriter]

Not the best example, it is pretty much a consensus opinion that those films were utter shite.

No, it really isn't.

 

[Longinus]

No, it really isn't.

It isn't? Well it should be, they were utter shite.

 

[Noname Given]

It isn't? Well it should be, they were utter shite.

What? TNG: Genedrations, TNG:Issurection and TNG: Nemesis utter shite? Yeas, I agree.

 

[Timo]

Dunno, I always liked the first two. (And didn't think much of ST:FC, but it's slowly growing on me.)

At least TPM, AotC and RotS had a plot, which #7 lamentably lacks. It's just too bad that they were true prequels, meaning everybody knew the plot in advance.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ometiklan]

For Assignment Earth, I meant he was ordered there in time, and we're not talking about GO #1 (and the Temporal Prime Directive didn't exist yet). But mostly, what you say sounds reasonable, but unless you are also saying what Fox did was clearly an illegal order I don't see how it ever applies to anything Kirk did. Yes, AToA was against the wishes of that planet's government, but Fox clearly had authorization from StarFleet to establish contact "no matter what" and Kirk had no authority to disobey orders (I mean he could have, but legally, Fox could have relieved him of command and then insisted Spock take them in)...

Yeah, I wasn't thinking about making contact. We don't know for sure they don't have warp travel (and warp wasn't even a requirement for GO#1 in TOS), but making basic contact isn't the problem. It's when Kirk decides that the way their civilization is going (or not going) is wrong and needs to be adjusted, that is the violation. The same as in "The Apple".
It always felt strange to me that there would be GO#1, but that Kirk found (i.e., made up) these exceptions. I don't know that he actually made them up, if these exceptions already existed, if he was obeying the letter of the law but not the intent, or even the intent but not the letter. But his reasoning often seemed convienient. It just seemed odd that the showrunners would create the law just to have Kirk explicitly break it - and they didn't even go as far as justifying it by, for example, Picard's speech/entreaty in "Justice" about the whole absolute law vs justice idea. They just had Kirk break it because the status quo was not as good as Kirk's preferred status. Not to say Kirk was wrong about a stagnant culture or a culture that had immunized itself from the true impact of war. But even though he was right, GO#1 is all about not putting our belief about right or wrong onto another culture.

They might have been able to justify interference in "The Apple" if they had sent an anthropological and archaeological team down to study the history of the people and Vaal and they had found that it was created by some alien influence. But they didn't do that, and it wouldn't have made for very good TV, so I guess that is why Kirk does what he does.

Dunno, I always liked the first two. (And didn't think much of ST:FC, but it's slowly growing on me.)

At least TPM, AotC and RotS had a plot, which #7 lamentably lacks. It's just too bad that they were true prequels, meaning everybody knew the plot in advance.

Timo Saloniemi

I still like ST:Generations. It's not the best, but not the worst. Picard's fantasy family is not good and overall the movie is very slow, but there is just something about the first big screen appearance of the TNG crew. For me it was the series that really got me hooked on Star Trek (though I watched TOS first), and it is just a nice big step up in production quality and prestige that I can't not like it.
ST:FC I think is pretty darn good Trek, and a really good action movie.
Insurrection I can live with as a minor episode turned into a movie, but again a little boring and with a few bad parts (largely the humor of the flotation device, boobs, pimples, singing androids). Pillar's book on its creation is really fascinating.
Nemesis I thoroughly dislike. I would have to see it again (which would make time number 2) before I could decide what goes on the bottom of the heap of star trek movies: Nemesis, STV, or Into Darkness (currently Into Darkness has that dishonor).

Eps 1-3 i don't like or really care about. 4-6 are, of course, really great. The Force Awakens, for me, was ok. Definitely repetitive, but the new characters and the dogfighting scenes elevate it for me. And I really enjoyed Rogue One. I am worried about Ep 9 as JJ is really crap at getting good scripts, though he does tend to find a halfway decent movie out of the crap by editing down to nonsensical bare bones.