Speculation on other Starships we might encounter?
- Thread starter AaronMorse
- Start date
It was just stated that there was twelve at the moment. In any case, I really don't think TOS era Starfleet is particularly big, and even in TNG we get the impressions that starships are quite rare and precious. It is in DS9 when they could just copypaste the screen full of CGI ships that that got lost.
I can imagine TOS era Starfleet having maybe less than hundred capital ships, so twelve of them being Connies makes enough sense.
That makes no sense. If they only had 100 crusaders, they would have been conquered very easily by a dozen or so powers. And federation space would have been the wild west with outlaws and pirates EVERYWHERE. This is why the TOs stuff is often retconned or ignored as it makes no sense with how large the setting is. The US Navy has more ships than that, four times that amount.
We also know they had battleships, so they likely have the full range of ships and TOS non-sense aside, they had to have a large fleet for security if nothing else. TNG they are out the edge of Federation space and can still get dozens of ships at short notice. In 5 days they got a 39 ship fleet together. Mostly from near earth patrol ships. Later on with just a single day, they got Picard a 23 ship fleet.
They cranked out like 7 or 8 new designs in numbers in less than a decade in the TNG era, they are not a small service. DS9 they had 32 brand new Akira's. The 7th fleet( meaning there has to be 6 more) had 112 combat ship. This does not count tenders and science ships. At one point two fleets merge and they were only outnumber 2 to 1 with the other side having 1200 ships. Meaning two federation fleets had 600 ships.
If starfleet were so small as you think, they could not have even staffed mothballed ships.
No the TOs did not even have an idea of the federation size, so it sounds like non-sense. They kept changing who they were and earth ship, a federation ship, a united nations ship and so on.
I do agree, that could not have been the only ship class. And with just 12, they may have been an old class. We know the Enterprise was 20 years old, but we really do not know the age of the class. Those 12 could be the last in service or like a upgraded version and last production of an older class. Not sure I buy that last one. We know the computer core was ground breaking.
I am thinking they may have just been a short run class. Too costly or some other major issue killed it after only a 12 ship run. Maybe it got a major redesign or something. That would actually kinda fit. A MK II like TMP ships or something. But then it makes no sense they would decommission the class in 2290.
I doubt the Federation with trillions population has less ships defending its space than what the USA has with a population of 326 million. Even assuming TOS Federation is still only 4 planets (Earth, Vulcan, Andor, Tellar) plus colonies that is at least 24 billion people to defend assuming an average population of 6 billion.
I said capital ships, I'm sure there can be small coast guard style patrol ships. Also, 'size of the setting', how large you think TOS era Federation is?
It is common enough occurance that Enterprise is the only ship available during an emergency, even near Earth. That does not indicate that starships are relatively as common as naval ships are today.
We do?
Yeah and loss of those ships was considered a huge blow. Of course with DS9 logic that is just a minor skirmish as there suddenly are thousands of ships.
DS9 fleet sizes are not really consistent with prior Trek.
Obviously TOS Federation is much smaller than TNG era Federation hundred years later, and the fleet is much smaller too.
It still had a population of billions to defend if not trillions, unless the Federation grew by 1000% between 2293 and the TNG era, in just a 75 year period, the smallness of a TOS Federation still means they need a decent sized Starfleet to defend its space. Either that or each planet does its own defending and has its own fleet of ship and Starfleet is about as effective as the UN defense force.
The truth is the writers did not think the whole thing out cos it was irrelevant to the stories at that time.
Starships are not comparable to modern naval ships. In TMP Enterprise seemed to be the only ship that could confront V'ger... and this was at the centre of the Federation. In Generations Enterprise B was the only ship that could reach the Nexus ribbon, again, near Earth.There was no fleet defending Earth, it is completely plausible that there is nothing but some shuttle-sized patrol boats defending more remote planets.
Which is a load of in universe bollocks when you examine it. Earth being the HQ of the Federation should have more than one starship defending its Sol borders unless every planet has a sophisticated defense grid ala Men in Black style.
(Which makes Nero kidnapping Pike an even more ridiculous plot point in ST09)
And they are conquered. You can't change this simple set of math. No way a 100 cruisers can hold the federation, not even try.
This is a silly plot device. Nothing more
No, the death of 11'000 personal were a blow, that was the big lose. Personal take time to train 4 to 6 years for an ensign . And they are people, you can't rebuild people. The ships were stated could be replaced within a year. Which does match DS9 ship production levels.
Let that sink in. they could build 39 new ships and staff them in 12 months.
Yes it is. They got 23 ships on the outskirts with a 1 day notice. This was not DS9, this was TNG. they had 23 ships that close just a single day away on a backwater sector.
Kirk stated it was a 1000 worlds. We know Picard and such listed a 150 homeworlds, they never seemed to count colonies. So In Kirks day they had a 1000 worlds to safe guard. Look at ENT, we can see the size of the federation in 2161. We have 23 planets at the birth of the federation. By TOS Kirk claims a 1000.
But they don't! (Have ships, they may have defence grids.) This is completely circular, people have decided that Starfleet has a lot ships, so screen depictions of Starfeet not having a lot of ships are deemed nonsensical!
It makes perfect sense, if you assume that Starships are rare, special and hard to built, more comparable to maybe Aircraft Carriers. There may be lesser runabout style patrol ships and defence ships, but they're not real starships. But presumably Federation has such a high tech level they can handle random space pirates or hostile minor aliens.
But they are not. By TNG they can creak out 39 ships and 11'000 crew in 12 months. They can spin out massive amounts of ships. Even TMP they rebuilt in Enterprise in months, which means they can build a ship in months not years. When you have thousands of worlds, you can creak out ships rather fast.
By whom? If the enemies have comparable or even lesser fleets they won't be.
You cannot just disregard it like that. Two times when in (or near) TOS era the Earth is threatened and there is no defence fleet. It does not exist.
So even if there were thousand worlds and about hundred ships, that's ten worlds per ship. In TOS we saw Enterprise receiving a distress call from this or that Earth colony or somesuch. There were no fleets to respond, only one ship. There were no ships stationed to defend those colonies. No, the Federation worlds are mostly on their own, and only if there is some specific reason may a starship arrive.
Not all of those worlds similar facilities than Earth, nor was Enterprise a new ship. Obviously it was easier to refit an existing ship than build a completely new one, otherwise they would not have done it. TNG ear production capabilities are of course different.
Which still makes it a stupid plot device.
You may think it is stupid, but that's how Starleet of the era seems to operate. You guys seem to be making up your own fanon and are upset that the series and films do not adhere to that.
By any of the big bads from TOS. They have the same size of fleet and nowhere near the same area to protect. They would curb stomp the Fedration if your numbers are right, which they are not.
Why not? You are disregarding common sense and basic math here. It was plot stuff, they just so happened to be close, they just so happened to have whatever the
10 worlds per ship, over distance means the Federation is a lawless land that nothing gets down. Packs of small ships would hunt down and kill the lone cruiser in the 10 planet sector and render it lawless. Its like saying you have a single lawman covering 10 cities. This is your claim and your logic? Lets see how long your cargo shipments get anywhere or someone does not park in high orbit and start nuking cities until you surrender.
Out of a 1000 worlds, you only need 10%, that is a 100 worlds that can cranks out ships. We know each of the founders homeworlds have massive ship yards. so that is four from the word go. They had fleets before the start of the federation. Each of those cranked out warships for the Romulan war. So from day one they had a huge fleet. They have to have had a larger fleet in 2161 then you think they had in TOS.
Now, lets not lie to ourselves the TMP ship was not a refit. Brand new lower hull, brand new sacuser, brand new nacells, brand new pylong, brand new core, brand new insides. They added decks, they made decks taller, they widened the hallways and added another lift to the bridge.
This is not the same ship.
