Wow. I'd actually consider adding that to my personal canon, versus the official version.
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Should TMP be ignored?
- Thread starter WarpFactorZ
- Start date
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I'd rather all of the TOS era have TUC aesthetics personally.
Amazing, isn't it? Just how much better it flows, how quick it jumps into the story, and how easy it is to remove some of the more egregious parts of the film.... Its by far my favored version at the moment. I wish Jack Marshall would post a hi res copy some place. He's the only one that may still have one. It took years of searching for me to track down that page with the live link. Every torrent was dead.
That would be fun to see, for sure, and would still fit the same theory, that there is no TMP / refit, and the ship always looked the way it did in II. But, what would those new remade TOS episodes look like? What uniforms would they use? Would they use movie style fonts and credits? Music? FX? Which version of Klingons? Which version of the Bridge? TMP? II/III ? the end of IV? V? VI?
Considering that so many TOS sets exist, my thought sprung from what was more realistically possible - getting a fan outfit to film an existing Trek movie beat for beat, like (STC did with the end of Turnabout and the end of Mirrorx2) would be much more realistic. We already have Vic doing a Khan monologue on youtube, after all....
Exactly. At this late date, what's the point of "ignoring" TMP? There are six TOS movies--we all saw them--and I'm pretty sure that if I casually mentioned V'Ger and Saavik in the same book, nobody at CBS would blink an eye. Because TMP is a thing, and it was followed by KHAN, etc.
STAR TREK 2 takes place after STAR TREK 1. Anything else is over-thinking it.
Here's my chronology:
2265-2270: TOS-TAS (Five Year Mission)
2274: TMP
2282: TWOK-TVH
2288: TFF
2291: TUC
A four year jump between TAS and TMP accounts for the different uniforms, Kirk being "out of touch" and such. A nine year leap between TMP and TWOK accounts for the further changed uniforms, Kirk and co. being obviously much older than in TOS-TMP, and any other discrepancies. TMP Kirk is a middle aged man in the galaxy and wanting one last shot at the action before he goes back to desk duty. The WOK is him realizing desk duty isn't for him.
2265-2270: TOS-TAS (Five Year Mission)
2274: TMP
2282: TWOK-TVH
2288: TFF
2291: TUC
A four year jump between TAS and TMP accounts for the different uniforms, Kirk being "out of touch" and such. A nine year leap between TMP and TWOK accounts for the further changed uniforms, Kirk and co. being obviously much older than in TOS-TMP, and any other discrepancies. TMP Kirk is a middle aged man in the galaxy and wanting one last shot at the action before he goes back to desk duty. The WOK is him realizing desk duty isn't for him.
So how does a 6 year gap work for TFF, when its still coming off its shakedown cruise started at the end of TVH? I personally always pencil in a 3RD 5YM for the "A" between TFF and TUC, to be honest.
2265-2270: TOS-TAS (Five Year Mission)
2274: TMP
2282: TWOK-TOV
2283: TFF
2291: TUC
2270: Five Year Mission ends. Kirk promoted immediately after in recognition of his talents and achievements and logs a few Star Hours training Cadets as Admiral from 2270 to late 2271 or 2272, but settles into desk duty. TMP takes place in 2274, four years after the Five Year Mission, and two and a half years after his last Star Hour. Two and a half years is enough time for him to grow bored with desk duty.
After the events of TMP, the crew goes on a second Five Year Mission from 2274-2279. The Powers That Be don't really like the rogue that Kirk is when in the command chair, reactivate him as Admiral, and send him back to desk duty.
If you notice, any chance the Federation gets (even in II-VI), they're always looking for an opportunity to take him out of command, and finally in VI, decommission him. Let's be honest here. Kirk disobeys orders, doesn't play by the rules, is an incendiary figure with regard to the Klingons (his mere existence harms peace efforts). They would want him on desk duty as much as possible - away from possible encounters with Klingons, and thus as far from potentially causing headaches for the big guys as possible.
In IV, they give him his rank AND his ship back, in fact, going way out of their way to congratulate him and put him where he will best utilize his talents. V starts immediately where IV leaves off, with Scotty grumbling "lets see what she's got, the Captain said..." and everyone on leave following the events of II, III and IV. all 4 movies encompass maybe a year.
First off "Kirk is a maverick" is right along the lines of "a port in every girl" - It might be the rep the character has, but it is demonstrably not true.
Second, Kirk tried to NOT take command in TWOK, first from Starfleet and then from Spock. Starfleet insists (as does Spock). TSFS is another issue, but even after III and IV he is awarded command (as "punishment", HA!) as Phoenix219 has pointed out.
Finally, the Klingons weren't going to roll over and play nice if onlly the Federation would sideline the infamous Jimmy Kirk. I assume Starfleet knows this. (CinC "Bill" isn't shown to be part of the conspiracy, is he?) However, I'm sure there are Federation civilians that would make just that claim.
And I like your timeline. I've decided I don't give a hang about what "year" things happen in, but the relative dates mostly line up with my findings, with a wiggle of a year or two in some places.
BTW, I'm listening to the score of TMP while I write this. That's reason enough right there to not ignore TMP.
Yep.
My only contribution to timeline stuff right now is ultimately irrelevant, but I've always thought of Season 1 as a couple years into the 5YM already. To me, the pilot is the FINALE of an unseen season, with shocking deaths of fan favorite characters - we just never got to see the episodes. The show proper would involve year 2.5-4.0 or so, with the final year being TAS and STC. (my own head canon, of course.)
First off "Kirk is a maverick" is right along the lines of "a port in every girl" - It might be the rep the character has, but it is demonstrably not true.
Second, Kirk tried to NOT take command in TWOK, first from Starfleet and then from Spock. Starfleet insists (as does Spock). TSFS is another issue, but even after III and IV he is awarded command (as "punishment", HA!) as Phoenix219 has pointed out.
Finally, the Klingons weren't going to roll over and play nice if onlly the Federation would sideline the infamous Jimmy Kirk. I assume Starfleet knows this. (CinC "Bill" isn't shown to be part of the conspiracy, is he?) However, I'm sure there are Federation civilians that would make just that claim.
And I like your timeline. I've decided I don't give a hang about what "year" things happen in, but the relative dates mostly line up with my findings, with a wiggle of a year or two in some places.
BTW, I'm listening to the score of TMP while I write this. That's reason enough right there to not ignore TMP.
Devil's Advocate - without TMP, it just gives us that much more of a reason to maintain (a cut of) Trek V in canon.....
Only if we assume that the fourth Trek movie (that is, the third in this particular series) lasts for less than a year.
But there's nothing to timewise tie the launching of the E-A with what happened in the first nine-tenths of the movie. For all we know, the heroes had to wait for their new ship for six full years.
Timo Saloniemi
Exactly. That's why Kirk disobeying orders in "Amok Time" is so extraordinary, because it's the exception, not the rule. A soldier who constantly disobeys orders will not go far in any military organization, much less make Captain.
It stands to reason that some significant time has elapsed between the BoP's return to the 23rd C. and the trial verdict. First and foremost: THE TRIAL ITSELF! Surely putting not one, but five people up on not one, but SIX serious charges is going to take some time. I doubt they just opened the trial with a "how do you plead?", then an aside of "I hope he doesn't say 'not guilty!'". Add to that the outcome of this trial could have serious consequences on galactic peace between the Federation and Klingons. Not something you rush through.
But more to the point: consider Kirk's post-trial encounter with Gillian. She seems extremely comfortable in her new environs, where Kirk is effectively her only friend (if you believe a short passage of time). So what does she do to him? She blows him off and darts.
You have to consider it a rather rapid adjustment, considering she was suddenly thrust 300 years into the future to a world she knows virtually nothing about. That's has to take a lot of time to work out in your head. AND she has been assigned to a science vessel. Sure, she knows about humpbacks, but there must be a bit more extensive training needed to get on board. All in all, she must have had some variety of extensive training / education / reintegration into society to be in her current position.
So, it can't be days, weeks, or I'd say even months. It's at least a year, or a year and a half, likely more.
I feel like asking "should (such and such film) be ignored" is just a way to impose your will on others. If you want to "ignore" a film because it wasn't to your fancy, that's fine, but making a grand debate that THE very first film of the series should be ignored is pretty absurd. TMP is probably one of the closest films to the original series in terms of scope and the sense of the unknown. If not for TMP's success, there would be no following films.
People call WOK a "reboot" but WOK was Star Trek II. It didn't pretend in name that the first film didn't exist, nor did the following sequels.
I don't like Generations, but I wouldn't pretend it doesn't exist. I don't like The Force Awakens, but it exists.
Ignoring a film or kicking it out of canon because you didn't like it just strikes me as childish, and just trying to shove your views on others.
People call WOK a "reboot" but WOK was Star Trek II. It didn't pretend in name that the first film didn't exist, nor did the following sequels.
I don't like Generations, but I wouldn't pretend it doesn't exist. I don't like The Force Awakens, but it exists.
Ignoring a film or kicking it out of canon because you didn't like it just strikes me as childish, and just trying to shove your views on others.
Well, yes, "Should TMP be ignored?" is an obvious leading question.
I think the producers of TWOK were acting like TMP didn't exist.
One of the main themes of TWOK was that Kirk had lost his touch as captain just repeating that theme in TWOK.
Why was Kirk an admiral again obviously in a job he didn't want? In TMP he grabbed back the captaincy and in the next movie he'd lost it again. If you accept TWOK as being after TMP then you have to think Kirk is a bit stupid. Surely someone as talented as Kirk could get a job he liked. In TWOK Spock said to Kirk something like he should have never accepted the promotion to Admiral, indicating that Kirk had some choice in it. Was he talking before or after TMP or both?
This is getting tiresome. Have you actually read this thread?
Short answer: no
Sick and tired of this argument after 40 years. If you don't like it, don't watch it. I watch it once a month. Shame people can't appreciate it. Maybe not enough pew pew?
"Validate my headcanon" posts never work.
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