Commodores

[Shamrock Holmes]

Commodores appear to be something of an oddity in Star Trek and there doesn't seem to be a consistent view on what they are or whether they even exist in a given era. IMO, the first is worthy of discussion, however the second is an unfortunate Americanism brought about potentially due to changes in the role/protocol of the Commodore making it less prevalent in the TNG era.

1) UESF definately had Commodores, Forrest appears to be a "junior flag officer".
2) Federation Starfleet (23rd Century and early 24th) appeared to have two to three billets for Commodores (that may also be separate ranks): "task force commander" (Cdre Wesley), "senior line officer" (Cdre Decker) and "junior flag officer" (the rest). The first and third types also share a distinct badge (starburst) that lacks the division indicators of Decker's 'pretzel' and the more common 'delta'.
3) Federation Starfleet (late 24th Century) appears to have abandoned regular use of the rank as all officers above Captain appear to be treated as "members of the Admirality" and therefore accorded the courtesy title of "Admiral" regardless of their actual rank. [for example Gregory Quinn wears a uniform similar to a TOS-era Commodore but is refered to as Admiral]. However, textual references suggest that some from of the rank still exists.
4) Post-TNG TrekLit has mostly followed the series, however at least one reference suggests that the use of "Commodore" in the "task force commander" role is permissable, if optional. It should also be noted that Galaxy-class Captains are already commanding the equivalent of two or three 23rd Century starships already so they might be 'protocol equivalent' to a Commodore anyway.

 

[Timo]

That there should be diversity to the TOS usage is not a necessary interpretation. Decker could have been a task force commander for all we know, Mendez likewise; indeed, gold shirt and thick sleeve braid put together might send this specific signal in general, while red shirt would indicate that other "commands more than just a single ship" status, starbase command. We just failed to see the other assets under the command of Decker and Mendez, because the former was cut off from the rest of the universe by the jamming field of the DDM, and the latter by the telepathy of the Talosians.

Indeed, when Wesley commands, he commands a group of Constitution cruisers. When Decker commands, perhaps the very same thing applies? After all, we did see two Constitution cruisers operating in the very same star systems, albeit at alternate hours. Kirk was even covering some systems twice.

The rank of "one-star Admiral" obviously hasn't been omitted in the late TNG era, even though we never see it - it's implicit in the existence of Admiral ranks with two through four pips (and more strongly so than the "five-star" rank is, because that's the "open" end of the series, but the zero truncates the other end, but we have strong reasons to believe in "five-star" Starfleet Admirals since those were present in two different takes of the late 23rd century Starfleet).

Retroactively, we can extend the concept to what Quinn wears, etc. We just have to accept the change in form of address, so that the one-star rank now warrants "Admiral, Sir!". Whether this change also omits the very word Commodore is wholly open to debate, of course.

There is no pressing reason not to treat every occurrence of Commodore as "junior flag officer", now is there? We don't even know for certain that the goldshirt Commodores of TOS would have been starship COs: our limited view to their commands allows for a separate ship CO who just allows Wesley to sit in the (special, high-backed) center seat, or has died and vacated the (backup) center seat for Decker to collapse onto.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

That there should be diversity to the TOS usage is not a necessary interpretation. Decker could have been a task force commander for all we know, Mendez likewise; indeed, gold shirt and thick sleeve braid put together might send this specific signal in general, while red shirt would indicate that other "commands more than just a single ship" status, starbase command. We just failed to see the other assets under the command of Decker and Mendez, because the former was cut off from the rest of the universe by the jamming field of the DDM, and the latter by the telepathy of the Talosians.

Indeed, when Wesley commands, he commands a group of Constitution cruisers. When Decker commands, perhaps the very same thing applies? After all, we did see two Constitution cruisers operating in the very same star systems, albeit at alternate hours. Kirk was even covering some systems twice.

Decker wears a badge with the "Command Star" whereas the other commodores wear the "starburst" which lacks command/science/medical/operations indications. He is also seen in command of a single starship. One of these things might be coincidence, two suggests a pattern.

Given that the Commodore Stone, a red-shirted Commodore, was at one pointed identified as a "portmaster" it's possible that Starbase 11 has a "co-command" function with Stone in charge of logistics, maintenance and security, with Mendez or his predecessor being the de facto "task force commander in waiting" as he has the starship command experience that Stone potentially lacks (certainly Stocker, the other red-shirt Commodore, explicitly did)

The rank of "one-star Admiral" obviously hasn't been omitted in the late TNG era, even though we never see it - it's implicit in the existence of Admiral ranks with two through four pips (and more strongly so than the "five-star" rank is, because that's the "open" end of the series, but the zero truncates the other end, but we have strong reasons to believe in "five-star" Starfleet Admirals since those were present in two different takes of the late 23rd century Starfleet).

Retroactively, we can extend the concept to what Quinn wears, etc. We just have to accept the change in form of address, so that the one-star rank now warrants "Admiral, Sir!". Whether this change also omits the very word Commodore is wholly open to debate, of course.Timo Saloniemi

I agree that "one star Admirals" (for clarity that's TMP! Kirk and Admiral Savar from Conspiracy, not Quinn who wears an updated Commodore's uniform but might be an "Admiral by post"), weren't abandoned in the TNG-era, but they appear to be renamed. USN precedence would suggest to Rear Admiral Lower Half, whereas I favour FASA's Branch Admiral, which though not canon, sounds better and has the virtue of being semi-official (at time of publishing).

The "Monster Maroons" may have a specific "five star rank" as the "pips" on the more elaborate "Commander, Starfleet" uniform have a pip centered under the rank badge with two to the left (implying five pips) as the "four pip" version (semi-canonically Fleet Admiral, but Grand Admiral seems the more likely option) centers between the second and third pip.

I'm not aware of any canonical source for five pips or stripes in any other system?

 

[1001001]

 

[galad2003]

In the US NAvy a commodore is a title given to a senior captain who commands a squadron of smaller ships. I was on a submarine and a submarine is usually captained by a rank of commander(O-5). Someone with the rank of Captain (O-6) commands a squadron of submarines. Some Navies might refer to them as senior Captains.

The Navy also briefly had the rank of commodore Admiral which is a 1 star Admiral.

So in Star Trek I see a Commodore as either of those. The name of the rank for a 1 star admiral or a senior captain who commanded a group of ships.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Gonna be some red alert sounds....coming down...on the night shift.

 

[StarCruiser]

Commodore Preble would like a word in this thread:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Preble

The rank of Commodore existed in the US Navy essentially from the beginning. It is sometimes used like a brevet (temporary) promotion. In some ways, the Commodore could be considered both a flag officer and a line officer at the same time. A Commodore could command their own ship, as well as a squadron.

Due to "politics" (remember, Greek for "many blood sucking creatures") the rank was changed to "Rear Admiral Lower Half". And yes, it is still used as a title for an officer in charge of a squadron.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_(rank)

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Commodore Preble would like a word in this thread:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Preble

The rank of Commodore existed in the US Navy essentially from the beginning. It is sometimes used like a brevet (temporary) promotion. In some ways, the Commodore could be considered both a flag officer and a line officer at the same time. A Commodore could command their own ship, as well as a squadron.

Due to "politics" (remember, Greek for "many blood sucking creatures") the rank was changed to "Rear Admiral Lower Half". And yes, it is still used as a title for an officer in charge of a squadron.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_(rank)

Technically, I believe it should read senior or field officer rather than line officer (as the former relate to seniority whereas the latter relates qualification (which both Admirals and Captains will possess) and identify Commodores as acting flag officers but substantive senior/field officers which presumably may be reassigned as a Captain without being "demoted". Certainly this is the case in the Royal Navywith Jerry Kyd who previously ranked as a "Commodore" as "Officer Commanding, Britannia Royal Naval College" but reverted to "Captain" when he took command of HMS Queen Elizabeth but will presumeable use the title of Commodore if he commands the Queen Elizabeth Strike Group in the absence of an Admiral (currently likely to be RADM Alex Burton, Commander UK Maritime Forces/UK Carrier Strike Group during planned operations).

 

[StarCruiser]

Yes - probably a better way to put it but still...

When did Star Trek firmly hold to proper navy procedure?

 

[The Old Mixer]

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[USS Triumphant]

but we have strong reasons to believe in "five-star" Starfleet Admirals since those were present in two different takes of the late 23rd century Starfleet).

Perhaps the fifth star is reserved for the Supreme Commander that basically personally represents the President of the Federation either generally or only in time of war or emergency? (Similar to the way the American ranks of "Admiral of the Navy" or "General of the Armies" have worked.) (And assuming that the C-in-C isn't a permanently separate office from the President, as is implied might be the case in Star Trek VI.)

 

[J.T.B.]

Decker wears a badge with the "Command Star" whereas the other commodores wear the "starburst" which lacks command/science/medical/operations indications.

Some publications later retconned the badge to have a star, but in the episode it did not.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I've always looked at a commodore as being a senior captain in Trek, capable of commanding a starship, a small taskforce of starships, or a starbase. I'd like to think that the rank still exists in the 24th-Century as the "one-pip admiral," but it's now more of a purely administrative, rear echelon thing (maybe the Starfleet Surgeon-General or the commanders of the San Francisco & Utopia Planitia shipyards are commodores).

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Some publications later retconned the badge to have a star, but in the episode it did not.

Well, that's interesting, it's still a different insignia than all the other commodores where, so there's probably a difference, but it's now less obvious what the difference is although seniority over Captain Kirk is definately the case either way.

Would it make sense that Commodores are rarely seen in TNG+ because the increasing bureaucracy has pushed the rank of HQ officers up to the extent that they are mostly left with "senior Captain" jobs*? For instance, if Commodore is a temporary or acting appointment, then we could assume that Picard is probably one, but given his typical "solo command" assignments goes by Captain instead?

* The RW a Surgeon-General is a Vice Admiral or lieutenant general (three star), it's unlikely that Starfleet appoints an invidual two ranks lower to the post, they're more likely to be a "four star" or even a "five star" if that's not exclusive to the C-in-C. IMO, Beverly Crusher, possibly temporarily a Commodore, was head of the Starfleet Medical Centre, San Franciso (main Starfleet Hospital) not the whole organisation.

So:

No Star: Not used by UESF, Commodore during TOS, optional status for Captains TNG+ (equivalent of Brigadier if appointed)
One Star/Stripe: UESF Commodore, Starfleet Branch Admiral (equivalent of Brigadier-General if appointed).
Two Star/Stripe: Rear Admiral (equivalent of Major General if appointed).
Three Star/Stripe: Vice Admiral (equivalent of Lieutenant General if appointed), also Fleet Admiral or Fleet Commander (equivalent of US Combatant Commander?)
Four Star/Stripe: (Grand) Admiral (equivalent of Army or Marine General if appointed).
Five Star/Stripe: Commander-in-Chief of Starfleet (equivalent of Admiral of the Fleet (RN) or General of the Army (USA) if appointed).

 

[Timo]

I'm still loath to put a wedge between Mendez and Wesley, two Commodores adhering to identical dress code. Nothing much connects Mendez with Starbase 11 save for him being there - he's not even given the sort of obvious offices that, say, Stone worked in, but sort of just hosts Kirk's visit to the local hospital.

That the starburst should be qualitatively different from the arrowhead or the pretzel hinges on the absence or presence of those stars, spirals and atomic models... The significance of which is actually unknown, its "supposed" one being debunked by the many onscreen errors in application. Either the small symbols mean "something else", or then they mean exactly what was intended and it just happens that they are detacheable parts of the decoration and therefore sometimes erroneously applied by the characters themselves. The latter then excuses all-out omissions as well!

Kirk in TMP and the pipless folks from TNG may or may not be the same thing, but Kirk clearly is a two-pipper: "base flag braid" (the thick one) and "one extra". That he only wears one item on each shoulder would appear to mean that even the biggest bosses only wear one - this sharply opposed to the ST:ID uniforms where the shoulders are wide enough to sport one through five stars, and those match the total number of sleeve braid (thick plus thin) so that e.g. Pike has four stars. Kirk appears to hold onto this Rear Admiral rank with the monster maroons as well if Fletcher's scheme is to be believed.

Interestingly, that scheme shows multiple five-star officers simultaneously in ST6, not just "the CinC" (who, not being the civilian leader of the UFP, would probably be something like CinCKling and colleague to CinCRom and CinCCore and whatnot, all of them entitled to the decoration equalling five stars).

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I'm still loath to put a wedge between Mendez and Wesley, two Commodores adhering to identical dress code. Nothing much connects Mendez with Starbase 11 save for him being there - he's not even given the sort of obvious offices that, say, Stone worked in, but sort of just hosts Kirk's visit to the local hospital.

Mendez and Wesley being the same thing (line officers of flag status if not grade) is perfectly reasonable. Perhaps they are Starbase or starship commanders with the authority to command additional vessels if required (tactical leadership). By contrast, Stone and Stocker pretty much have to have something different about them, which I would suggest is that they are strategic-level staff officers (Either Engineering/JAG and Admin respectively most likely) rather than tactical leaders (Command).

Kirk in TMP and the pipless folks from TNG may or may not be the same thing, but Kirk clearly is a two-pipper: "base flag braid" (the thick one) and "one extra". That he only wears one item on each shoulder would appear to mean that even the biggest bosses only wear one - this sharply opposed to the ST:ID uniforms where the shoulders are wide enough to sport one through five stars, and those match the total number of sleeve braid (thick plus thin) so that e.g. Pike has four stars. Kirk appears to hold onto this Rear Admiral rank with the monster maroons as well if Fletcher's scheme is to be believed.

Interestingly, that scheme shows multiple five-star officers simultaneously in ST6, not just "the CinC" (who, not being the civilian leader of the UFP, would probably be something like CinCKling and colleague to CinCRom and CinCCore and whatnot, all of them entitled to the decoration equalling five stars).

Timo Saloniemi

I think it's unlikely that Kirk and the pipless "Admirals" from TNG are the same thing, his grade is never given but I would equate him to the "one-pip" (Branch Admiral or Rear Admiral Lower Half) so as not to given him several grades increase at once (two at most) unlike Kathryn Janeway around a century later. I would also suggest that he was a Chief of Starfleet Operations (either for Sol or the Core Systems) rather than the Chief of Starfleet Operations who should probably be a "four-star" and responsible for operations fleet-wide and de facto deputy to the CinC.

Do you have any pictures of other than Marcus wearing five pips? Which should translate as one broad and four medium stripes, but IIIRC they didn't bother to create another sleeve braid and used Pike's "broad + 3" uniform for Marcus as well. The grade definately exists, but I'm inclined to call it CinC/Commander, Starfleet exclusive (as with the similar "Monster Maroons" uniform) unless there's good evidence otherwise.

 

[Timo]

Well, that's interesting, it's still a different insignia than all the other commodores where, so there's probably a difference, but it's now less obvious what the difference is although seniority over Captain Kirk is definately the case either way.

The easy way to go would be to just say that all the badge designs are the same: they denote Fleets within Starfleet, and the Starburst Fleet and the Arrowhead Fleet happen to operate side by side a lot, especially around SB11, whilst the Pretzel Fleet is a less common partner. They do take care not to show the insignia on the chests of Wesley's crew... Or any of Decker's crew.

Would it make sense that Commodores are rarely seen in TNG+ because the increasing bureaucracy has pushed the rank of HQ officers up to the extent that they are mostly left with "senior Captain" jobs*? For instance, if Commodore is a temporary or acting appointment, then we could assume that Picard is probably one, but given his typical "solo command" assignments goes by Captain instead?

This is one way to explain the thing that requires explaining in the TNG context: that Picard would go straight from Captain to Admiral if accepting Quinn's offer. The other way is to assume that the single-pip flag rank is called Admiral something, leaving open the two possibilities of TOS style Commodore (thus "Commodore Admiral") existing or not existing.

Then again, "jump promotions" are a frequent phenomenon in Trek for people who used to hold Captain rank and title. We may assume this happened to Kirk after TOS, leading directly to TMP (but we can also assume plenty of time and in-between ranks passed before TMP). We have to assume this happened to Pike in the 2009 movie - a huge jump from Captain to four-star Admiral (then again, the man did command the Fleet's "newest flagship" as his last job at the former rank). Janeway gets three stars off the bat. Possibly Picard was going to skip a rank, too?

Starfleet might have a system wherein people "held back" by field assignments can make up for the lost time when transitioning to flag rank and position. Perhaps Picard and Pike voluntarily held back to command important flagships for promotional reasons, and were (to be) rewarded by higher flag rank for their troubles? Janeway might not have been as junior as she seemed when taking command of Voyager, and her seven-year odyssey would have "held back" a career already destined to skyrocket, Starfleet then compensating. Any heroics at the transition point would then only need to add one extra pip (Starfleet handing out pips rather than medals is a well-established phenomenon).

The other idea that flag rank might be tightly related to position, meaning Starfleet would have a "demand" for multi-pippers when pondering what to do with a given Captain, isn't all that attractive when we see flag rank does not correspond exactly to any specific flag job.

IMO, Beverly Crusher, possibly temporarily a Commodore, was head of the Starfleet Medical Centre, San Franciso (main Starfleet Hospital) not the whole organisation.

Agreed - and one wonders if there also aren't places or organizations also called, say, Starfleet Security, while not being the same as the entire Starfleet division going by the same name...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Agreed - and one wonders if there also aren't places or organizations also called, say, Starfleet Security, while not being the same as the entire Starfleet division going by the same name...

Agreed.

I'm currently leaning towards the idea that Starfleet Security is operationally two different organisations, though the "Chief of Starfleet Security" probably controls both. Starfleet Security Forces, which are the embarked personnel we mostly see on the shows that report to the Ship's CO (analogous to USN Master-at-Arms), who may also do limited infantry and "base defense" work a ala USAF Security Forces; and the Starfleet Criminal Investigative Service (or possibly Starfleet Intelligence?) which is responsible for major criminal investigations and strategic level security/counter-intelligence (hybrid of NCIS and ONI?).

This is one way to explain the thing that requires explaining in the TNG context: that Picard would go straight from Captain to Admiral if accepting Quinn's offer. The other way is to assume that the single-pip flag rank is called Admiral something, leaving open the two possibilities of TOS style Commodore (thus "Commodore Admiral") existing or not existing.

This dialogue is interesting as Quinn refers promoting Picard to "Admiral", which in USN usage is a "four star", three or four ranks above Quinn's own if the uniform is correct. Even the fact that later Commandants are "two pips" doesn't really help as that's still one or two grades above Quinn's uniform rank.

I think the body of evidence would seem to favour the idea that (in reverse to the later Rear Admiral Bennett, who wore four pips) Quinn should have been wearing at least two pips rather than none.

 

[somebuddyX]

Commodore Data commanded the Enterprise-F in that book Imzadi. I'm pretty sure there was another guy with rank, Lxiv. By TNG time they probably done away with the name and just called them Opel Insignias.

 

[Prax]

There are ten ranks(and maybe 11 in a war or crisis)but many different positions.

Whether its called Commodore or Rear Admiral lower half, the rank is a one star flag officer

On an aircraft carrier, The Captain usually holds the rank of captain, and often the executive/first officer as well. So they both hold the rank of captain, but one has the position of Captain/C.O. and the other of X.O. A commodore (by rank) could hold different positions or levels of authority with different titles but still be the rank of Commodore.

A 1st LT in the army could hold the position and title of "Company X.O." or "Platoon Leader " or they could be a battalion staff officer, or a doctor, or a chaplain, or a number of things, but still hold the same rank of 1st LT.

Isn't Admiral Pressman a one-star? If so, you could imagine calling him "Commodore pressman" and it would mean the same thing.