CBS "Guidelines" Should Be Ignored - Proceed With Your Productions

[jespah]

Nothing is impossible but as you say it would be tough for them to have success in a lawsuit if somebody abided by the guidelines.

Of course most fan films even if they were following the guidelines got asked to shut down most would simply comply and do so with no need for a lawsuit in the first place. Only a douche would keep going if they knew copyright owners were unhappy with what they are doing.

If the guidelines are out there (which they are) and a production 100% followed them (not impossible at all), and then they were sued, if I were the defense attorney, I would be calling for a jury trial. Most people have a fundamental sense of what they believe to be fairness, and juror probably wouldn't see that as fair unless the IP holders did some fancy footwork. That fancy footwork would (I expect) involve proving things like intentions to use the product (that is, the film) for commercial purposes or to facilitate other commercial purposes.

PS I will now put myself on a parentheses diet.

 

[KirkusOveractus]

If the guidelines are out there (which they are) and a production 100% followed them (not impossible at all), and then they were sued, if I were the defense attorney, I would be calling for a jury trial. Most people have a fundamental sense of what they believe to be fairness, and juror probably wouldn't see that as fair unless the IP holders did some fancy footwork. That fancy footwork would (I expect) involve proving things like intentions to use the product (that is, the film) for commercial purposes or to facilitate other commercial purposes.

PS I will now put myself on a parentheses diet.

However, if a production did not follow those guidelines, despite being the ones who caused those guidelines to be established in the first place, and continued on their production, I would not bat an eye if that production was sued for every penny they collected via crowdfunding.

 

[trynda1701]

And that is the spirit which embodies what fan films should be all about: Fans doing what they do for the love of it.

As an original Trekkie growing up in the '60s and '70s, I was always in the middle of something Trek related. Whether it was my older brothers working with Ed M. on props, models and costumes, or my mother working with her friend Shirley M. on the Welcommittee, I knew that what they were doing was because they were fans of something special, and they wanted to share their love for Star Trek with others. And they did it without expecting any great, financial reward for their efforts.

The CBS guidelines are just ridiculously restrictive. I think they realize that and they may be trying to pull back, somewhat, with the upcoming film academy in Ticonderoga. And CBS has to realize that Star Trek wouldn't be what it is today if it wasn't for its fans.

Name dropper! Just not the names we asked for! Cite your source!

 

[MikeH92467]

If the guidelines are out there (which they are) and a production 100% followed them (not impossible at all), and then they were sued, if I were the defense attorney, I would be calling for a jury trial. Most people have a fundamental sense of what they believe to be fairness, and juror probably wouldn't see that as fair unless the IP holders did some fancy footwork. That fancy footwork would (I expect) involve proving things like intentions to use the product (that is, the film) for commercial purposes or to facilitate other commercial purposes.

PS I will now put myself on a parentheses diet.

Yep, I'm not saying it would be anything except a sleazy maneuver, just that it could conceivably still happen, forcing someone who acted in good faith to go to the trouble, stress and expense of fighting it. I don't think the current regime at CBS/P has any such intention, but who's to say that the next regime wouldn't? ETA: Please note that my argument is that the guidelines might keep CBS/P from winning a suit, but there's nothing that I can see that would stop them from filing suit, no matter how little merit it might have or what a dick move it would be.

 

[jespah]

Yep, I'm not saying it would be anything except a sleazy maneuver, just that it could conceivably still happen, forcing someone who acted in good faith to go to the trouble, stress and expense of fighting it. I don't think the current regime at CBS/P has any such intention, but who's to say that the next regime wouldn't? ETA: Please note that my argument is that the guidelines might keep CBS/P from winning a suit, but there's nothing that I can see that would stop them from filing suit, no matter how little merit it might have or what a dick move it would be.

I don't think they would go after a 100% compliant production unless something major and major league bad (there's specifics for ya) was happening. Such as:

• Fans being cheated
• Something criminal happening on the set (underage actor etc etc fill in the blanks)
• Really, really casting the IP in a bad light (how bad? Nazis and not the space kind. Child abusers. Etc etc fill in the blanks)

The IP holder would need to have a really good case - but note the former 2 are also criminal matters, so the DA can be the bad guy there.

Please don't take this as a challenge, fan filmmakers.

 

[Philip Guyott]

After thorough analysis of CBS's guidelines, our local legal group has concluded that they have no legal force or standing in law. They are merely meant to intimidate the fan production community as a whole, just to preemptively deter the few that may try to intentionally profit commercially from their productions.

The biggest problem CBS has is that any attempt to halt a fan production that is not made for commercial gain is an infringement on the fans' First Amendment right to free speech. In fact, the "15 minute/two part max" section alone is a blatant assault on free-speech rights. Actually, they are admitting you have the right to express yourself, but they will decide how much expressing you can do.

What they are saying there is: "OK, you have the right to talk, but you can only talk for 15 minutes at a time, two times on the same subject, and you can never discuss that subject again." That would be laughed out of court.

It's the job of CBS's legal department to protect their intellectual property from being exploited commercially. They are paid to seek out commercial infringements on that property and deal with them, accordingly. It looks, to us, as though they thought they could quash any and all fan productions with these guidelines, and the accompanying threat to take legal action if the guidelines were not followed.

So now, the CBS lawyers don't have to do all that work of analyzing each and every production to see if they are making a profit. They can relax and take an extra long lunch break now that the "guidelines" have been sent down from the mountain with Moses.

Sorry, CBS. Your lawyers should have to actually earn their paychecks.

I wouldn't be surprised if someone sued CBS for interfering with their right to free speech.

So, go ahead. Produce your fan films. Make them as long as you want, use whatever costumes and props that you want, enlist whatever talent you want. Just don't do it to make a commercial profit. Do it because this is how you want to express yourself, and do it because it is your RIGHT!

Alec?

Oh shut up Alec.

Dam it, you got there before I did

 

[QuantumMechanic]

Now, for an experiment: go ahead and record a Beatles song to reflect the mood you're in (that way, you can say it's free speech). Now, take that recording and put it online for folks to download and either ask for a small donation or small fee to recover costs for time and posting it online.

Actually, if you're willing to cough up the ten cents per copy mechanical license fee to Harry Fox, you can do just that.

 

[dmac]

CBS/Paramount have a fine line to walk with their Star Trek Franchise. They have been blessed with fans willing to recreate all possible aspects of the series one could imagine. Because of this any hint of new content coming from the franchise almost instantly fills the social media feed.
Honestly who doesn't indirectly make money from all the conventions and fan film activity? If you get right down to it, even if done by the strictest of compliance, if some fan club does a social fund raiser, purchases materials, makes a film and posts in on Youtube, everyone turns a buck except the fan studio.

The host of the fund raiser charges their fee
Suppliers of raw materials, equipment or software sell their wears
Youtube and other social venues has content to attract eyeballs to their ad laden platform and without eyeballs, where would all that ad revenue come from?

You could argue that all of this adds up to next to nothing in a 15 trillion dollar economy and you're probably right but CBS should prove it and release a reboot of Blondie. Without it's 50 years of fan support.

I'm all for people protecting their property but the Star Trek Franchise has become something unique which may require a unique solution from CBS/P.

 

[KennyB]

I'm all for people protecting their property but the Star Trek Franchise has become something unique which may require a unique solution from CBS/P.

I don't think the "but I'm special" defense will work.

 

[Jam3s1701]

I don't think the "but I'm special" defense will work.

What will happen if people keep taking the P***, is a ban on all fan films, one day some will go way too far even further than AP did because egos will get in the way and then the hammer will hit hard.

 

[Stephen!]

In fact, the "15 minute/two part max" section alone is a blatant assault on free-speech rights.

One potential loophole would be to have several groups of 15 minute videos playing simultaneously and have separate audio streams.

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[Krandor]

One potential loophole would be to have several groups of 15 minute videos playing simultaneously and have separate audio streams.

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Trying to find loopholes around the express wishes of the copyright owner is what will get somebody sued she guidelines tightened.

 

[dmac]

What will happen if people keep taking the P***, is a ban on all fan films, one day some will go way too far even further than AP did because egos will get in the way and then the hammer will hit hard.

This is not the same marketing world it was 50 years ago. Today there is an online social conscience that works in minutes to do what the letter campaigns of old took months to do. The guidelines are an olive branch to all the creative fans who year after year keep Star Trek on the public minds.
This topic will crop up from time to time, to question if the IP holder has any legal ground to stop anyone from creating derivative works for non profit. Probably not but the artist formerly known as Prince showed how difficult distribution on social platforms could become.
Go ahead, ignore the guidelines but just make something other than Star Trek, it's that simple.
Could the guidelines be altered in the future to help expand the fan base? possibly
Just for a minute imagine if Fox Studios reached out and asked creative people to create fan based Orviille episodes with some limited for profit license. I think that in a very short time you could have the same type of fan base Star trek enjoys before season 1 is over.
Right now I look at the trailers for Orville and I'm not that excited, open minded for sure but if it comes with a laugh track I'll be far less interested.
Common knowledge says for profit fan works would cost the IP holder some profit. Consider District 9 released in 2009 without much of a fan base to speak of, in and out of the theaters chalking up a $20 million dollar loss. Meanwhile I don't see social pages dedicated to it's existence.

I'm just putting this out there because as the world changes, the way the major studios relate to fans will also have to change.

 

[Sgt_G]

...question if the IP holder has any legal ground to stop anyone from creating derivative works for non profit. Probably not...

Probably not??? Sorry, but it's been proven time and time again that the absolutely can. For the longest time it was impossible to find Prince or Garth Brooks music on YouTube. There are still a couple authors than ban use of their worlds / characters on Fan-Fic-dot-net. They are on very firm legal grounds to do so.

Is it the best policy? Possibly not. Can it disenchant the fan base? Absolutely. Each IP holder has to look at risk/reward and determine what's best for them.

 

[dmac]

Is it the best policy? Possibly not. Can it disenchant the fan base? Absolutely. Each IP holder has to look at risk/reward and determine what's best for them.

I think the use of conventions and fan film are an incredible plus to the film industry. At some point, some major studio is going to stumble into using fan creations as a marketing tool. (and then screw it up... LoL)
Unless some of these smaller production studios are blind, they would probably kill to have what Star Trek has.
Meanwhile Viacom has had on again, off again tender offers for Paramount over the last few years. I would think that one "Make these fan films go away before I write this billion dollar check." and it's a one way trip to the airlock. I'd also figure a mass of posts inviting fans to simply ignore the IP's wishes don't help us out in the long run.

 

[Krandor]

I think many people overestiamte the value of fans films to the franchise. Do they help with the hard core fanbase? sure. However in the general public they mean nothing. You go ask 100 random people on the street about STC or STNV and you'd be lucky to find 1 that knew of the. Outside of mainstream fandom they are not known about and do nothing to keep the general public engaged in a franchise.

For the average viewer it has been 12 years since they have seen Star Trek in the prime universe and so for most DIS will be new to them because it has been so long since they have seen star trek. All the stuff fans complain about lie the delta, the look of the ship - the klingons, etc. are not things john doe who hasn't seen prime trek in 12 years will care about.

That is the reality. Fan films are nice for the fans but do pretty much zero for the general public.

 

[dmac]

In a static world I'd agree with you.
Snakes on a plane was knocked for using fan made trailers but netted 26 million for a rather chessy production. Can't credit pre fan involvement for that, must have been a fluke.
Today we have all these Amazon, Youtube Red, Hulu, and online access network productions. Perhaps it isn't an easy concept to see until somebody does it and has success with it.

 

[Potemkin_Prod]

Discovery will intice some fans who miss regularly appearing Star Trek. Some of them will be from the old fan base, many more will be new fans. It'll last as long as it lasts, and it'll fade away, much like, imo, Enterprise has.

If you say Star Trek to the general public, they think Cap'n Kirk, Doctor Spark, and Bones McCoy. That's why the JJ Abrams movies had those characters. Don't get me wrong: TNG made a lot of fans, but it's all downhill from there. I don't think all that many cared for DS9, fewer for VOY, and even less for ENT. DIS is going to have to be something special to change that trend.

 

[jespah]

Big studios still don't need fan films and art to make it. But smaller studios could use the push.

 

[Bixby]

Looks like Spock Guy made a run for the hills...