Discovery at STLV. The massive info dump

[Albinator]

Fan backlash to a cancellation has convinced execs to renew a series here and there (but usually those were cases where the cancellation was on the fence anyway), but that's about it.

There is no history to show a fandom whining about uniforms and alien designs "forcing" execs to change them.

That said, I do think the complaints about the Discovery ship design did have an effect on the final design. But emotionally-driven angry ranting isn't what's going to get producers attention. Only constructive criticism, and feedback based in logical and rational points have any chance of getting heard and responded to.

 

[ozzfloyd]

Wanna bet on that?

Sure.

I thought we were betting. What are you putting up?

 

[jamestyler]

Examples?

Caprica's fan campaign worked out really well.

There's always this "fans matter" thing, and it's true to an extent, but Sense8 was a recent semi-failure. Sure, the fans campaigned enough that we get a special to close it all, but it's still cancelled.

Wrestling is another example: The minor internet fans bemoaned that their era was gone and boo'd John Cena every time he appeared (which still happens). More than a decade later, there he is centre stage because despite that loud minority.... he's good business.

Star Trek will be the same: A minority complains, the majority don't, the ratings look fine and move on. When the ratings DONT look fine, thats a different matter,. But thats not down to vocal fans; it's down to numbers.

 

[Noname Given]

The sole purpose of that entire episode (and the reason it was shown so early) was to pay lip service to TOS directly, referencing "Kirk's ship" as having first encountered the virus. As if the appearance of an elderly Admiral McCoy in the pilot wasn't enough. The producers feared the TOS fans didn't feel TNG was "true Trek" and felt they had to remind us it was, but in a very sloppy and clunky way.

Don't forget all the TOS era models (Type F Shuttlecraft, etc.) they often had in the background of scenes in TNG Season One. They were basically screaming "No really - see - it's Star Trek!"

Also, in the Los Angeles market - they started 'sandwiching a new episode of TNG between two episodes of TOS - IE they'd air an episode of TOS, then the new TNG episode, followed by another episode of TOS <--- So yeah, they were doing all they could to try and get TOS fans to sit through an episode of TNG in 1987.

 

[137th Gebirg]

Yes, there seemed to be some denial back then (which repeated itself several times, most recently with AbramsTrek and Discovery) whether or not something under the Paramount banner was considered "true Trek". The controversy has always been there, from the very beginning, but accelerated and exacerbated with the assistance of Teh Interwebz.

 

[Tomalak]

I don't think it was handled THAT poorly, I think it was the handcuffs of bland-90s Trek that hurt it; I found it to be the most interesting part of Season 2. If I'd been a producer I'd have seen that as reason to UNSHACKLE their limitations rather than impose harsher ones. Real shame, there was a lot of potential there.

I think it was a worthy experiment and it's a shame it was perceived not to be a success. ISTR from the time that Paramount was micromanaging the show because it was crucial to UPN, and they basically wanted a TNG clone and made no secret of that. I think it was one of the reasons Piller left.

 

[Albinator]

I think it was a worthy experiment and it's a shame it was perceived not to be a success. ISTR from the time that Paramount was micromanaging the show because it was crucial to UPN, and they basically wanted a TNG clone and made no secret of that. I think it was one of the reasons Piller left.

What I liked most about it was that it gave Neelix something interesting to do. The later episode where they leave the area of space that Neelix was familiar with, and he is worried he would become useless-- committing some crimes to get a map of the next few sectors-- had a lot of potential as an ongoing plot, but turned out to be just a single episode.

It was those morally ambiguous episodes that made Voyager interesting, but it was neutered by the TNG clone it was trying to be, rather than letting it have it's own identity develop naturally.

 

[Fateor]

Examples?

The second half of season 2 of stargate universe, the Serenity movie, season 2 of Dollhouse, the Arrow.

 

[Kemaiku]

The second half of season 2 of stargate universe, the Serenity movie, season 2 of Dollhouse, the Arrow.

Season 2 of SG:U killed the franchise to the point they were about to reboot, until they hit upon a Discovery-esque reimaging semi-reboot with the new series coming out.

The Serenity movie was made as a direct continuation of a series that was cancelled for bad ratings, and barely succeeded, mostly among ardent Firefly fans who are far more fanatical than Trekkies about their fandom.

Dollhouse was utter shite, season 2 was terrible and killed the show stone dead and it's staying so.

Arrow has been dropping in quality like an out of control tourist down a skee-slope with terrible decisions and changes being made.

If fans were behind all of those, then fuck fans. Obviously their decisions kill franchises or take them in wild, awful tangents.

 

[Albinator]

Season 2 of SG:U killed the franchise to the point they were about to reboot, until they hit upon a Discovery-esque reimaging semi-reboot with the new series coming out.

The Serenity movie was made as a direct continuation of a series that was cancelled for bad ratings, and barely succeeded, mostly among ardent Firefly fans who are far more fanatical than Trekkies about their fandom.

Dollhouse was utter shite, season 2 was terrible and killed the show stone dead and it's staying so.

Arrow has been dropping in quality like an out of control tourist down a skee-slope with terrible decisions and changes being made.

If fans were behind all of those, then fuck fans. Obviously their decisions kill franchises or take them in wild, awful tangents.

Fans were not responsible for those things, outside of the ones where their continued interest lead to the studio green lighting another season. And that's a key difference because it's less about complaints, as it is about telling the network, "hey, there's an audience for this."

But pretty much every time fandoms kept a show alive in this manner, it rarely led to more than 1 extra season.

Most retoolings don't happen due to fan complaints, they happen because ratings drop.

 

[Kemaiku]

Exactly, they have no power over the studio and cannot force change. Discovery will go ahead regardless.

 

[Mage]

The second half of season 2 of stargate universe, the Serenity movie, season 2 of Dollhouse, the Arrow.

No, possibly, no and no.

Arrow's rating maybe declining, but are still good compared to other shows. SGU was still cancelled. So was Dollhouse. And Serenity is the only example I already named earlier, and the only really known example. It hardly counts, because it wasn't so much fans demending. Fox realized the fanbase was a lot bigger then expected, but also not that big. It warranted one movie being made, that would earn them some money, but it was not enough to warrant investing in more episodes, which would cost a lot more money in the long run, with a lot less revenue.

So, sorry, no. You're still painfully unaware of how this system works. We control shit. End of story.

 

[Tosk]

Never in the history of shows or movies have fans made an influence, except maybe Serenity. That's it.

Not true. The massive (perceived) backlash to the leaked ending of Terminator Salvation lead to them dumping the material they had and shooting a new ending.

 

[jamestyler]

Not true. The massive (perceived) backlash to the leaked ending of Terminator Salvation lead to them dumping the material they had and shooting a new ending.

I dont know much about that to be honest, but that doesnt sound unusual. Endings were changed when we had regular test audiences. These days, leaks arent that far off the test audience.

 

[Mage]

Not true. The massive (perceived) backlash to the leaked ending of Terminator Salvation lead to them dumping the material they had and shooting a new ending.

Movies have their endings changed all the time. That's not fans, that's test audiences. And I can't remember that particular story. Imma google that.....

 

[Tosk]

Not too long ago, Ridley Scott said that his plains for the Prometheus sequels changed specifically due to fan reaction.

 

[Mage]

The only thing Ridley decided on, was adding xeno's to the mix I believe, since some fans wanted more bugs. Personally, I could have done without them a for a bit longer. I really liked Covenant, but would have also loved a bit more build-up to the actual xenomorphs appearing.

And I also think that the internet has really blown the story about Ridley being influenced by fans out of proportion. He's not the kinda guy to do what others want really.

 

[Tosk]

Personally, I could have done without them a for a bit longer.

Same here.

The only thing Ridley decided on, was adding xeno's to the mix I believe

It's still something, therefore not "never in history".

He's not the kinda guy to do what others want really.

Tell him that. He's the one who said it.

 

[cultcross]

Also worth separating 'fan wishes' from 'audience reaction'. General audience reaction certainly can change TV and films creatively, the ending of Generations is a topical example, but this isn't 'because the fans wanted it', it's because it doesn't play well with the audience who will pay money to see it.

Trek did 'what the fans wanted' with ENT season 4, lots of explanations, callbacks and fanwank. The show was cancelled. What the audience wants will have an effect. But the fans make up a minority of that audience and are actually the most reliably hooked members of it.

 

[INACTIVEUSS Einstein]

Someone has previously noted that Star Trek tends to always be used as a way of selling new TV networks (like UPN), and it's fortunes tend to be tied to other sci-fi like Star Wars - basically, if there is a sudden upswing in sci-fi in the public consciousness, the execs scramble to muster their only TV franchise - I can certainly believe this interpretation, as we are A). in a time of peak Star Wars, B). CBS are launching a streaming service.

Since its allegedly already paid for in full by Netflix's purchase alone, I don't think Discovery is going to be in any trouble whatsoever in terms of cancellation - I think the statistically greater danger is that it's so bullet proof they could just churn out crap seasons without consequence - but given the team working on it, I don't think the show could ever be that bad. I could see it having much higher viewship outside the US though, with this CBS platform.