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Dark Matter Season 3

I was thinking it was like the alien invasion that just seemed to pop up out of nowhere on Blake's 7. The android revolution being like the the silicates on Space Above and Beyond playing both sides during their war. Mixed with the Founders infiltrating the Federation and Klingon Empire during the run up to open warfare with The Dominion
 
Mixed with the Founders infiltrating the Federation and Klingon Empire during the run up to open warfare with The Dominion

Exactly -- during the run-up. They set things up gradually and paced them out -- the Klingon conflict dominated one season, and then the outbreak of the Dominion war was at the end of that season. They set things up for later, yes, but they didn't pile everything on at the same time. They resolved one big thing to clear the board for the next big thing.

One of the weaknesses of modern serialized TV writing is that it gives writers an excuse to avoid learning how to resolve storylines. They just begin one thing after another, pile on more and more questions to distract audiences from the fact that none of the questions has a satisfactory answer, none of the problems an actual resolution. Of course, the better serialized shows aren't like that -- for instance, Killjoys has a very tight narrative that all feels like it develops logically and is ultimately telling a single story. But Dark Matter has always been kind of sloppy with its storytelling, setting things up and leaving them unresolved for a long time or just abruptly tossing storylines aside as with Devin and the Seers. But this season feels like they're just randomly throwing everything at the wall, burning off all the sci-fi cliches like evil doubles and time travel and robot uprisings and alien invasions. It's too cluttered and unfocused. If it were an old-school show where every episode was a self-contained story, that sort of thing would be okay. But it's presented itself as an arc-based show, so it needs more discipline in how it develops its arcs.
 
Apropos of nothing (or little), I happened to watch an episode of The Queen of Swords on YouTube, just 'cause I remember the show as being fun and featuring a beautiful and talented swordswoman in the lead. I was pleased to see Anthony Lemke was a featured player in the series! Not to accuse him of being a one-note actor, but he was pretty much the same "amiable bad guy" as Three.

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It's like "Who's the Cylon" again, only we get to play "Who's the Android",and also "Who's the Possessed Humanoid". It comes down to the nature of beings and their value. Are humans Born Of Woman the only ones of "value" in this universe? There are different kinds of sentient beings in this show and prejudice against the free androids and the type of being that Two is has already been expressed. Fear of AI is already being expressed in our world by Elon Musk and others. Makes this show more interesting to me. (sorry about all the ")
 
It's like "Who's the Cylon" again, only we get to play "Who's the Android",and also "Who's the Possessed Humanoid". It comes down to the nature of beings and their value. Are humans Born Of Woman the only ones of "value" in this universe? There are different kinds of sentient beings in this show and prejudice against the free androids and the type of being that Two is has already been expressed. Fear of AI is already being expressed in our world by Elon Musk and others. Makes this show more interesting to me. (sorry about all the ")

So the simulates are organic but probably grown in a cloning like process before being augmented by the nanites but is Two actually a simulant?

From the various parts of her history I took it that she was fully human until Dwarf Star and Rook decided to use her as a lab rat (thus being Rebecca before she became Portia).
 
From the various parts of her history I took it that she was fully human until Dwarf Star and Rook decided to use her as a lab rat (thus being Rebecca before she became Portia).

What? No. It was made clear in the first Rook episode that Rebecca was a synthetic human created by Dwarf Star. Rook named her Rebecca when he made her, and he and other Dwarf Star personnel still call her Rebecca. She was still Rebecca when she escaped and lived with Dr. Shaw (recall that the android on Shaw's outpost called her Rebecca when he saw her). It was only after Shaw was dying and put into stasis that Rebecca went out into the galaxy and adopted the new identity of Portia Lin.

After all, the nanites are what give her rapid healing and let her survive vacuum, but they don't create her exceptional strength, reflexes, prowess, intelligence, etc. That's built into her biology.
 
Exactly -- during the run-up. They set things up gradually and paced them out -- the Klingon conflict dominated one season, and then the outbreak of the Dominion war was at the end of that season. They set things up for later, yes, but they didn't pile everything on at the same time. They resolved one big thing to clear the board for the next big thing.

[...]But Dark Matter has always been kind of sloppy with its storytelling, setting things up and leaving them unresolved for a long time or just abruptly tossing storylines aside as with Devin and the Seers. But this season feels like they're just randomly throwing everything at the wall, burning off all the sci-fi cliches like evil doubles and time travel and robot uprisings and alien invasions. It's too cluttered and unfocused. If it were an old-school show where every episode was a self-contained story, that sort of thing would be okay. But it's presented itself as an arc-based show, so it needs more discipline in how it develops its arcs.
I don't agree that every show needs to resolve one big thing to clear the board for next one; not only doesn't real life work that way (Kim Jong-Un didn't wait for Assad, Al-Bagdadi, Maduro etc to be finished before he turned it up to eleven, and the climate discussion has been going on in the meantime, there is domestic trouble,...), shows like Game of Thrones (and the Song of Ice and Fire books even more so) have kept many balls in the air for consecutive seasons. Is GoT bad because it had the thread of the White Walkers and Wildlings, the war of the Five kings and the movements of Daenerys Targaryen in the East run concurrently? I don't think so.

NuBSG is very popular in this forum, even though they didn't bother to finish or even address its own storylines and teases in quite a few cases.

The "possessed" Three from late S2 did come into play after all, as I always had said it would, while some here assumed this element had been dropped (I think you were the one who wrote that it was added just because the episode seemed to come in five minutes short, as opposed to a setup for a later storyline). In itself, this is a return to a storyline that was started in late S1 when Rook's intentions were already guessed (at least as a possible answer) by part of the audience.

In general, Dark Matter tends to remember it storylines and finish them, at least to the extent that external factors don't interfere. As for the storylines that were abruptly tossed aside:
-Seers: the leadership got killed, this wasn't abruptly anymore than, say, than Pawter dying on Killjoys. The rank-and-file are still out there, maybe far less of a threat now without those leaders, but they may return.
-One: in this case, it's clear Mallozzi got overruled by Firestone for reasons unknown (maybe the latter felt the character wasn't working, as One wasn't the most popular). He was planning to revisit One's storyline (his wife, etc) this season but had to scrap the planned episode and replace it with the paradox episode, because some schedules didn't work out.
-Devon: here too, dropping the storyline wasn't intentional as explained in a previous post. This was admittedly not a good storyline with such an ending.

I will also note that the main storyline isn't the corporate war, the independence of colonies, the androids or the alien invasion: those are all background for the crew to deal with and to generate conflict that involves them. It's not bad that there is variety this way; not every episode has to deal with the corporate war, it can perfectly go on without the Raza, more than enough corporate warships and troops around for that.

This story is about the crew, the impact of the memory loss and the question if the criminals can or cannot redeem themselves.

It's like "Who's the Cylon" again, only we get to play "Who's the Android",and also "Who's the Possessed Humanoid". It comes down to the nature of beings and their value. Are humans Born Of Woman the only ones of "value" in this universe? There are different kinds of sentient beings in this show and prejudice against the free androids and the type of being that Two is has already been expressed. Fear of AI is already being expressed in our world by Elon Musk and others. Makes this show more interesting to me. (sorry about all the ")
I don't think this is like BSG, in the sense that even main cast/crew could turn out to be Cylon, there (and the problem with BSG was that they didn't do anything with Boomer, after they used the character for shock value at the end of S1). In this case, only synthetic humans have the long-term capability to carry those aliens and their identities are already known to Five and co.

This probably will impact the corporations though, because now the crew of the Raza has lists of the infiltrators in their ranks (at least the synthetics).

Androids are similar in the sense that they are not hidden, but the question is which have been tampered with to free them and which are still unquestionably loyal.

What? No. It was made clear in the first Rook episode that Rebecca was a synthetic human created by Dwarf Star. Rook named her Rebecca when he made her, and he and other Dwarf Star personnel still call her Rebecca. She was still Rebecca when she escaped and lived with Dr. Shaw (recall that the android on Shaw's outpost called her Rebecca when he saw her). It was only after Shaw was dying and put into stasis that Rebecca went out into the galaxy and adopted the new identity of Portia Lin.

After all, the nanites are what give her rapid healing and let her survive vacuum, but they don't create her exceptional strength, reflexes, prowess, intelligence, etc. That's built into her biology.
I'm not sure about the latter paragraph. The nanites give the healing, but given that the second-gen nanite bodies (seen in Dwarf Star HQ, late S2) are stronger still I would think they also impact on some other parameters like strength. It's probably a combination of both factors (nanites + design) that leads to the superior abilities on all fronts.
 
I don't agree that every show needs to resolve one big thing to clear the board for next one; not only doesn't real life work that way (Kim Jong-Un didn't wait for Assad, Al-Bagdadi, Maduro etc to be finished before he turn it up to eleven, and the climate discussion has been going in the meantime,...), shows like Game of Thrones (and the Song of Ice and Fire books even more so) have kept many balls in the air for consecutive seasons.

I'm not saying anything so reductionistic or mechanical. I would never be so stupid or intellectually lazy as to say that every show should do things exactly the same way. What I'm saying is that this specific show has pacing problems, and DS9 is an example of how something like this can be done better. They certainly set up the Dominion War while other story arcs were still going on, but they did it incrementally in a way that created rising tension and a logical progression. As I said, this feels like they're just tossing things out at random. It doesn't feel to me like the right time to just dump something so massive in our laps, especially when it had only a few minutes of setup a season earlier (in one of the worst bits of story pacing I've ever seen, since the whole business with Three being possessed by the black blob felt tacked on as an afterthought to a totally unrelated story).

In other words, I'm not saying it's wrong to keep multiple balls in the air -- I'm saying Dark Matter is not very good at it compared to other shows.


The "possessed" Three from late S2 did come into play after all, as I always had said it would, while some here assumed this element had been dropped (I think you were the one who wrote that it was added just because the episode seemed to come in five minutes short, as opposed to a setup for a later storyline).

No, I said it felt like it was. The fact that it had a belated payoff doesn't change the fact that it was poorly structured within the episode itself. Even in a serialized narrative, a portion of an episode should work as a part of that episode as well as a part of something greater. You talk about juggling balls -- a lot of what writers do is a balancing act, finding a way to make one thing serve two purposes at once. The best way to set something up for future episodes is to make it feel like a relevant part of the current story too. For instance, when the first Vorta was introduced in DS9: "The Jem'Hadar," we didn't yet learn her species was called Vorta or what her role in the Dominion was, but she wasn't just some new character who showed up out of nowhere at the end of the story. She'd played an integral role throughout the story as someone the characters thought was a fellow prisoner but who turned out to be a Dominion agent. She served the current story and set up later ones. That's how it's supposed to work. Serialization is not a license to be sloppy in how you structure each individual episode.


-Seers: the leadership got killed, this wasn't abruptly anymore than, say, than Pawter dying on Killjoys. The rank-and-file are still out there, maybe far less of a threat now without those leaders, but they may return.

That's a very poor analogy. Pawter's death at the end of season 2 directly drove Johnny's arc in the first 2-3 episodes of season 3, and its effect on Pawter's sister has also driven an episode. Killjoys is tightly structured and efficiently paced. Dark Matter is much more haphazard and feels like they're making things up as they go along and forgetting about things until they eventually feel like getting back to them. Even if they do eventually intend to revisit things, they don't present their narrative in a way that feels like they really have a well-organized plan.


I will also note that the main storyline isn't the corporate war, the independence of colonies, the androids or the alien invasion: those are all background for the crew to deal with and to generate conflict that involves them.

Please stop lecturing me on the obvious. Of course any decent story is fundamentally about the characters. Of course I know that, I'm a professional novelist. But I also know that stories can be well-structured or poorly structured. That's what this is about. Not whether the subject matter is included, but how it's presented and paced.


It's not bad that there is variety this way; not every episode has to deal with the corporate war, it can perfectly go on without the Raza, more than enough corporate warships and troops around for that.

Not. Even. Remotely. The. Point. I never said they should focus only on the corporate war. I said that it feels sloppy to introduce both an android uprising and a huge alien invasion in consecutive weeks while they have so many other dangling plotlines worthy of attention. Especially just after tossing in a cliched-as-hell time travel story. This season has been very undisciplined. It feels like they're just throwing in every sci-fi gimmick in the catalog one after the other.


I'm not sure about the latter paragraph. The nanites give the healing, but given that the second-gen nanite bodies (seen in Dwarf Star HQ, late S2) are stronger still I would think they also impact on some other parameters like strength. It's probably a combination of both factors (nanites + design) that leads to the superior abilities on all fronts.

Which is essentially my point -- that the nanites and the biological enhancements are two aspects of the same thing, rather than the nanites just being injected into a normal human. If that were the way it had worked, anyone could be upgraded by Two's nanites -- and she wouldn't have died from the failure of her nanites. Her synthetic biology can't work without the nanites, and vice-versa.

Really, with the way nanotechnology and biotechnology research are converging, I believe we'll eventually reach the point where there's no meaningful dividing line between the two.
 
What I'm saying is that this specific show has pacing problems, and DS9 is an example of how something like this can be done better. They certainly set up the Dominion War while other story arcs were still going on, but they did it incrementally in a way that created rising tension and a logical progression. As I said, this feels like they're just tossing things out at random. It doesn't feel to me like the right time to just dump something so massive in our laps, especially when it had only a few minutes of setup a season earlier (in one of the worst bits of story pacing I've ever seen, since the whole business with Three being possessed by the black blob felt tacked on as an afterthought to a totally unrelated story).
I don't know if DS9 is an example to follow, as far as planning goes. It was not very logical to first have a storyline where rising tensions between Klingons and Starfleet (actually set up all the way back in TNG, albeit in very early stages) eventually escalate to a (local?) war with the Federation fighting effectively on behalf of the Cardassians, with the Cardassians later turning upon the Federation and the latter very quickly agreeing to "let bygones be bygones", as far as their brief war was considered. And IIRC DS9 wasn't planned out, except by season, with the Dominion War being a plan brought up later.

In Dark Matter though, earlier incidents are brought back into play and viewers who pay attention - and who also don't dismiss certain bits as "tacked on as an afterthought" without considering those bits may have been there for a good reason - often get rewarded later on.

I wouldn't say the Dwarf Star "conspiracy" got only a few minutes of setup: the setup started the moment the show made us aware that Two had extraordinary abilities and properties, which started early in S1. There was an entire episode in S1 and another one in S2 dedicated to it. It was no coincidence that the first "ink alien" was encountered in a Dwarf Star lab, and in combination with the conversation between Rook and creepy old guy in S1 it was quite clear there was a connection with the synthetic/augmented humans. Moreover, Five also listed it as one of the key developments for the Raza crew in the time jump episode.

I personally enjoyed the time jump and time travel episodes. I don't mind the show does cliché; it's a fun ride.
 
I don't know if DS9 is an example to follow, as far as planning goes. It was not very logical to first have a storyline where rising tensions between Klingons and Starfleet (actually set up all the way back in TNG, albeit in very early stages) eventually escalate to a (local?) war with the Federation fighting effectively on behalf of the Cardassians, with the Cardassians later turning upon the Federation and the latter very quickly agreeing to "let bygones be bygones", as far as their brief war was considered. And IIRC DS9 wasn't planned out, except by season, with the Dominion War being a plan brought up later.

Wow, you missed some rather key parts of the narrative there. All of that was part of the leadup to the Dominion War.
When the Cardassian people overthrew the military government, the Changeling infiltrator that had replaced Martok tricked Gowron into thinking the new civilian Cardassian government was led by Dominion infiltrators, prompting Gowron to invade the Cardassian Union. When the Federation protested, Gowron withdrew from the Khitomer Accords, leading to renewed tension between the UFP and the Klingons. The Founders' goal in engineering the Klingon invasion of Cardassia was to make the Cardassians feel weak and desperate enough that they would be receptive to a Dominion alliance, giving the Dominion a foothold in the Alpha Quadrant which allowed them to begin the war against the Federation in earnest. Of course the Federation forgave both the Klingons and the Cardassians, because they had both been manipulated by the Dominion.



In Dark Matter though, earlier incidents are brought back into play and viewers who pay attention - and who also don't dismiss certain bits as "tacked on as an afterthought" without considering those bits may have been there for a good reason - often get rewarded later on.

Wow, you really don't know how to have this conversation without insulting my intelligence, do you? I'm done.
 
Forgiveness doesn't come so easily, after we had tales of Klingons boasting about killing Starfleet captains and battles like AR-558. Gowron was very easily manipulated to go to war with the Federation, but then the seeds of that were back when the character first appeared on TNG.

As for the other thing - you did dismiss it as an afterthought. I honestly wonder why it didn't cross your mind that the show might just do something with it, later. Why so litte trust in the show's writers?
 
I don't mind the way they jump around from story to story, as long as they finish them up.
I am glad they finally went back to the black tentacle cloud thing, and tying it in with Two's backstory was a cool surprise. I was surprised to see them actually bringing aliens into the story.
I do have to wonder what kind of an impact this will have on the corproate war. I can't help but wonder if this will end being a Founder infiltration in DS9 kind of thing where it turns out the whole war and everything was set up by the infiltrators.
 
I do have to wonder what kind of an impact this will have on the corproate war. I can't help but wonder if this will end being a Founder infiltration in DS9 kind of thing where it turns out the whole war and everything was set up by the infiltrators.

I'm not so sure.

as I said upthread, the gateway, the aliens that had passed through and the simulants they were going to use as hosts are all radioactive dust. Supposed they could open a new portal, built more simulants, but the alien plans have been kicked in the cods and the GA might be aware of just what Rook and Dwarf Star are up to (and if they don't the Raza crew could always fill them in).
 
I was surprised to see them actually bringing aliens into the story.

That's one thing that bugged me. Establishing real aliens in what's been a strictly humans-only universe to this point is a total game changer. It should be as shocking a revelation to the characters as it would be if aliens showed up in a present-day Earthbound series. Really, even more so, because they've had 600 more years to explore the galaxy without finding any aliens. But the characters seemed to take the existence of aliens pretty much in stride -- seeing them as a threat, of course, but not as something that upended their whole view of reality. And that just didn't seem to fit this show's universe.


I do have to wonder what kind of an impact this will have on the corproate war. I can't help but wonder if this will end being a Founder infiltration in DS9 kind of thing where it turns out the whole war and everything was set up by the infiltrators.

Wow, that would be unfortunate, because it would totally rip the guts out of the social commentary angle. Shows that portray corporate greed and rapacity as the source of oppression and suffering in society have considerable relevance these days, and we see a lot of them as a result -- this, Killjoys, Incorporated, Mr. Robot, etc. Having the corporate evils be just a front for a more conventional Lovecraftian evil would rather cheapen things, I think.

Then again, I guess Killjoys already sort of did that, since the Company belonged to the Nine, and the Nine were enacting a deal they'd made with the Hullen. Although it was at a greater remove, I guess, so there was still plenty of legitimate corporate exploitation and one-percenter greed involved. In any case, that's all the more reason for DM not to do a similar plot beat.


as I said upthread, the gateway, the aliens that had passed through and the simulants they were going to use as hosts are all radioactive dust.

Except for the several dozen infiltrators they had already sent out, the ones that are still alive and active within every corporate military, as Five discovered. This is not over.
 
He IS a writer himself, ya know. Might have some sense of these things.
The writers of DM are also writers, and thus might have "some sense of these things", too. This kind of arguments leads nowhere.

People can have differences of opinion, and being a writer does not mean Christopher is always, unquestionably 100% right. It's a forum here, not an echochamber.
 
The writers of DM are also writers, and thus might have "some sense of these things", too. This kind of arguments leads nowhere.

They also writing for the medium of tv and the next to produce X number of episodes each year with very tight production schedule.

A lot different from writing a book.
 
I don't mind the way they jump around from story to story, as long as they finish them up.
I am glad they finally went back to the black tentacle cloud thing, and tying it in with Two's backstory was a cool surprise. I was surprised to see them actually bringing aliens into the story.
I do have to wonder what kind of an impact this will have on the corproate war. I can't help but wonder if this will end being a Founder infiltration in DS9 kind of thing where it turns out the whole war and everything was set up by the infiltrators.
It seems unlikely that well-established persons, like Niemann and Truffault, but even more so the various board members of the big corporations, are simulants. Unless the first wave was a long time ago, one would expect the infiltrators to be newcomers on the corporate scene that rose quickly through the ranks.

As for the impact it may have: the big corporations have been infiltrated. Mikkei will now realise this (assuming the crew of the Arashi got credible reports, from the surface and from the Raza), Two may be in a position to convince Ferrous of same. So the major corporations may have to focus on the internal threat first, which may suspend the war.
 
They also writing for the medium of tv and the next to produce X number of episodes each year with very tight production schedule.

A lot different from writing a book.
Yes, and they also have to contend with outside influences like actor availability, funding, CGI/effects limits, interference from the people paying the bills,...

A novelist has more freedoms in this way; he can have an enormous cast and the most fantastic and grand environments, it doesn't have to make it to a screen with limited means available to produce it.
 
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