• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Future of Paramount includes Star Trek tentpole

3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3
 
3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3
To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.
 
The reason we know STB is still in the red or barely in the black is the Studio itself. Had this been a true moneymaker then we would have already heard numerous reports of the next in the series.

Yep. They would be tripping over each other to get a sequel or something related out the door.

I have a feeling if there is a fourth film, the entire cast won't be back. They will team a couple of current characters with new characters as a way to cut costs.
 
I'd personally be ok with the characters of Uhura and Sulu not coming back. They don't really add much. Really, outside of Kirk, Spock, McCoy, no one really adds much.
 
I'd personally be ok with the characters of Uhura and Sulu not coming back. They don't really add much. Really, outside of Kirk, Spock, McCoy, no one really adds much.
I wouldn't go that far, but I think TOS was also heavily focused on the trinity of Kirk, Spock and McCoy, where the other series were much more ensemble pieces.
What I would really love for Trek IV is the adddition of Jayla to the crew and.... Khan... Right after Into Darkness, there was this rumour that Benedict's Khan could be a crewmember, and as crazy as it sounds, I think it could work..! With a focus on Kirk, Spock, McCoy, Jayla and Khan, we would get this odd, unlikely band of heroes that really works well these days....
 
Wrong, revenue includes all money taken in. So it's not $325 million.

BTW, I also pointed out the tax rebates and discounts myself during the post-release part of the Beyond release.

So we have a total cost of $400 million (the media experts reported it at $350 million, but it's closer to $400 million..The avg cost for a Hollywood blockbuster with all costs is $417 million) Cost includes what it owes to partners and other associated production costs.

So let me do a closer estimation:
*$343 million box office (revenue)
*$40-100 million in merchandising deal with China (I'm using the lower figure))
*$15-30 million times the streaming sites: $15 million lower figure: That's at least $60 million. Netflix also signed a deal to run EPIX films but I don't know what the cost was. The total here could be as high as $80-100 million. I'm only counting $60 million.
*$15 million-Pay TV
*$13 million. I have no data on Network/FX Channel airing (The avg my graph tells me is $13 million for free TV alone and $14.6 million avg for Pay TV))
*Cable On Demand: No data on licensing but this generates individual, per view revenue as well. Likely amounts to $5-10 million or more.
*$38 million USA disc sales, Not counting 4k format which I have no data on but counting the 3-film collection sales. These also have a higher "margin" than film tickets.
*$19 million. All reports I recently researched suggest international disc sales are 50-100% of USA sales. I'm using the lower figure. (My graph tells me the avg blockbuster makes $57 million internationally..about 2/3rds of the USA figure, but since I have no other data I'm going with the lower figure.)
$40 million tax rebates-Which I did NOT count last time in order to be conservative.
$5 million USA merchandising(my graph tells me the avg blockbuster makes $11 million in merchandising) This includes, music (score+Rihanna) etc
$5 million international merchandising.(estimating mostly China)
Movie hotel and airline licensing generates an avg $2.7 million.
The avg blockbuster makes $21 million in "other" income.

So my new, more accurate calculation tells me $604 million in revenue. Subtract either the China deal and/or rebates and it's still $520-560 million. Profit is in the $120-200 million ranges currently.

*Edited for clarity

RAMA










I'm not so sure. I'm not exactly sure I want it to either - they started off O.K. and got steadily worse in my opinion. I'd be happier if Trek just goes forward on the small screen.

Not wanting to rain on anyone's parade that did enjoy them, let's just say that if there is a fourth one I hope it is stylistically very different from the first three. Much lower budget, less effects driven, less frenetic. Plot and character driven with the effects spend held over for where it's absolutely necessary.

They might even make a profit that way...
I would like to see a link to the information about this $30 million dollar deal from Hulu.
So this is what I have:

$170,000,000 - Box Office
$ 30,000,000 - Streaming (Amazon, Hulu, EPIX)
$ 35,000,000 - Discs
$ 50,000,000 - Downloads
$ 40,000,000 - Tax Rebates

That totals out to $325,000,000 in total revenue, excluding the China merchandising deal. A deal I can find surprisingly little detail on.
 
Last edited:
Not too mention to some of the other data too :whistle:



You counting all that as revenue?
Revenue is shown usually as the top item in an income (profit and loss) statement from which all charges, costs, and expenses are subtracted to arrive at net income.

Revenue is always the highest amount costs are subtracted from. It starts there.

RAMA
 
In your opinion how much of the box office gross, do you think went directly back to Paramount & it's partners? who funded the movie.
 
Wrong, revenue includes all money taken in. So it's not $325 million.

BTW, I also pointed out the tax rebates and discounts myself during the post-release part of the Beyond release.

So we have a total cost of $400 million (the media experts reported it at $350 million, but it's closer to $400 million..The avg cost for a Hollywood blockbuster with all costs is $417 million) Cost includes what it owes to partners and other associated production costs.

So let me do a closer estimation:
*$343 million box office (revenue)
*$40-100 million in merchandising deal with China (I'm using the lower figure))
*$15-30 million times the streaming sites: $15 million lower figure: That's at least $60 million. Netflix also signed a deal to run EPIX films but I don't know what the cost was. The total here could be as high as $80-100 million. I'm only counting $60 million.
*$15 million-Pay TV
*$13 million. I have no data on Network/FX Channel airing (The avg my graph tells me is $13 million for free TV alone and $14.6 million avg for Pay TV))
*Cable On Demand: No data on licensing but this generates individual, per view revenue as well. Likely amounts to $5-10 million or more.
*$38 million USA disc sales, Not counting 4k format which I have no data on but counting the 3-film collection sales. These also have a higher "margin" than film tickets.
*$19 million. All reports I recently researched suggest international disc sales are 50-100% of USA sales. I'm using the lower figure. (My graph tells me the avg blockbuster makes $57 million internationally..about 2/3rds of the USA figure, but since I have no other data I'm going with the lower figure.)
$40 million tax rebates-Which I did NOT count last time in order to be conservative.
$5 million USA merchandising(my graph tells me the avg blockbuster makes $11 million in merchandising) This includes, music (score+Rihanna) etc
$5 million international merchandising.(estimating mostly China)
Movie hotel and airline licensing generates an avg $2.7 million.
The avg blockbuster makes $21 million in "other" income.

So my new, more accurate calculation tells me $604 million in revenue. Subtract either the China deal and/or rebates and it's still $520-560 million. Profit is in the $120-200 million ranges currently.

*Edited for clarity

RAMA

Interesting. I hope you are right, my friend.
 
Let's break it down (All figures from The numbers or Box office mojo unless otherwise stated).

$336,398,312 box office
Let's be MASSIVELY generous and say that 50% goes back to Paramount. Please note, it's more like 40% these days due to the foreign market.
= $168 million

The film cost around $185 million to make (an incredible sum - Rogue One cost just $15 million dollars more to make - I know which film I'd rather have invested in!).
So that's a loss of around 17 million.

Marketing cost estimated at $120 million according to the Guardian newspaper.
loss increases to $137 million dollars

OK, but it's so far made $36 million in the home market DVD and video sales.

This pulls the loss back to $101 million dollars

Everything else below is bonkers guesstimation!

Rest of world home media probably around $15 million (crazy ballpark estimate not backed up by any data)

This pulls the loss back to $86 million

TV deals - lets go mad and say $60 million!!!
Plus say another $26 million for merchandise (lol) and whatever.

This pulls the loss pack to ZERO. BEST CASE SCENARIO.

Like all Star Trek films, even Nemesis! Beyond will make a profit. It will be released and re-released, directors special editions and this that and the other ad-nauseum. It will just take time.

To be honest, I can't understand why Beyond flopped so badly. It should easily have cleared $400 million at the BO - in it's sleep. For anyone doubting that Beyond is percieved to be a flop:

https://www.theguardian.com/film/20...sney-flops-hollywood-ben-hur-star-trek-beyond

http://www.inquisitr.com/3409505/its-official-star-trek-beyond-is-a-box-office-flop/

http://screenrant.com/star-trek-beyond-box-office-success-failure/

http://www.dailywire.com/news/8045/...ocial-justice-flops-box-john-nolte#exit-modal
 
Last edited:
Exactly my point, it is perceived to be a flop publicly to inaccurate and/or incomplete information. This goes back to my point that secondary income is what makes the vast majority of Hollywood films profitable. According to my research, the avg Hollywood blockbuster makes $417 million and generates less than $432 million. Roughly a $15 million profit even for huge blockbusters like Marvel movies. Ironically my research shows the more that is spent on a movie, the higher the likelihood it will make profit..50% and higher after costs reach $200 million or more.

Once my estimates are taken into consideration (and I believe them to be the most accurate in existence at the moment) then we see something closer to reality. The preception in public will probably continue however.

RAMA



Let's break it down (All figures from The numbers or Box office mojo unless otherwise stated).

$336,398,312 box office
Let's be MASSIVELY generous and say that 50% goes back to Paramount. Please note, it's more like 40% these days due to the foreign market.
= $168 million

The film cost around $185 million to make (an incredible sum - Rogue One cost just $15 million dollars more to make - I know which film I'd rather have invested in!).
So that's a loss of around 17 million.

Marketing cost estimated at $120 million according to the Guardian newspaper.
loss increases to $137 million dollars

OK, but it's so far made $36 million in the home market DVD and video sales.

This pulls the loss back to $101 million dollars

Everything else below is bonkers guesstimation!

Rest of world home media probably around $15 million (crazy ballpark estimate not backed up by any data)

This pulls the loss back to $86 million

TV deals - lets go mad and say $60 million!!!
Plus say another $26 million for merchandise (lol) and whatever.

This pulls the loss pack to ZERO. BEST CASE SCENARIO.

Like all Star Trek films, even Nemesis! Beyond will make a profit. It will be released and re-released, directors special editions and this that and the other ad-nauseum. It will just take time.

To be honest, I can't understand why Beyond flopped so badly. It should easily have cleared $400 million at the BO - in it's sleep. For anyone doubting that Beyond is percieved to be a flop:

https://www.theguardian.com/film/20...sney-flops-hollywood-ben-hur-star-trek-beyond

http://www.inquisitr.com/3409505/its-official-star-trek-beyond-is-a-box-office-flop/

http://screenrant.com/star-trek-beyond-box-office-success-failure/

http://www.dailywire.com/news/8045/...ocial-justice-flops-box-john-nolte#exit-modal
 
I'd personally be ok with the characters of Uhura and Sulu not coming back. They don't really add much. Really, outside of Kirk, Spock, McCoy, no one really adds much.
Sorry but ARE YOU SERIOUS?
Writing out the 2 poc of the cast and female lead to make it all about 3 white men would be a terribly backwards move for trek (and a shitty one too, after beyond was strongly criticized already for sidelining those two, especially uhura). You seriously can't expect a modern audience to care about these 3 only. The actors aren't even super big stars so they can't even cash on their popularity.


For old trek it is all about the 3 dudes but the reboot? The face of this trek is kirk/uhura/spock. Uhura has been a far more important character than Mccoy to the audience of this trek that has no pre-existing fannish nostalgic attachment to the old trio. Zoe Saldana also quite possibly is their only big star with Chris and they are the ones, in fact, who get awards noms for trek too. Frankly, aside from some old trek fans online, barely anyone from critics to the press cares so much about Mccoy and his dynamics. He makes no real contribution to the plot besides being Kirk's friend, and there is always enough bromance with kirk/spock already. He's no protagonist and neither is Uhura, but she's the female lead and her relationship with Spock is popular (and the actress also is) so her absence would get noticed more than losing one of the secondary white male characters.

Some of you desperately try to project tos things on this trek regardless what happened in this reboot, how JJ presented it and how promotional stuff presents it over and over.

Also, I don't want to be harsh here but we can't deny that while Beyond is old fans' favorite for the nostalgia and its going backwards to try to restore the kirk/spock/mccoy show , IT'S THE LEAST SUCCESSFUL of the 3 and maybe A FLOP! This once again proves how little old fans count if you want to save this trek.
Instead of proposing ideas to fix what the general audience probably didn't like about beyond, compared to the first two, you apparently think that a movie that would cater to old trek fans all the more would magically be successful. Like what?
 
Last edited:
Exactly my point, it is perceived to be a flop publicly to inaccurate and/or incomplete information. This goes back to my point that secondary income is what makes the vast majority of Hollywood films profitable. According to my research, the avg Hollywood blockbuster makes $417 million and generates less than $432 million. Roughly a $15 million profit even for huge blockbusters like Marvel movies. Ironically my research shows the more that is spent on a movie, the higher the likelihood it will make profit..50% and higher after costs reach $200 million or more.

Once my estimates are taken into consideration (and I believe them to be the most accurate in existence at the moment) then we see something closer to reality. The preception in public will probably continue however.

RAMA

I broke down the financials using your own figures to demonstrate that the film barely breaks even. Where did I go wrong?
 
Revenue is shown usually as the top item in an income (profit and loss) statement from which all charges, costs, and expenses are subtracted to arrive at net income.

Revenue is always the highest amount costs are subtracted from. It starts there.

RAMA

It doesn't count as revenue if it never makes it to Paramount. :lol:

But, even if it did, then you would have to subtract out the theater totals. Your Netflix EPIX totals are horseshit, as the deal would be for the whole library, not just Beyond. Besides, that deal expired in 2015.
 
It doesn't count as revenue if it never makes it to Paramount. :lol:

But, even if it did, then you would have to subtract out the theater totals. Your Netflix EPIX totals are horseshit, as the deal would be for the whole library, not just Beyond. Besides, that deal expired in 2015.
I didn't include ANY EPIX/Netflix totals. :) Even if they had expired, whatever total it was would have been counted. I simply don't have information to include them.

At this point, I've given the best info I can, right now I'm sticking with the totals until any new information comes along. I'm confident with the $520-604 million range. I don't really feel the need to debate it further till that happens.

I also must note: any profit Beyond made, sadly went into a Paramount black hole, as the studio was bleeding a tremendous amount of money. Paramount is still committed to 20 films a year with "tentpoles" in the lead.

Also, I am seeing rumors that even if Paramount doesn't merge with Viacom, it might not even exist as an entity in the near future. China may well end up owning all of Hollywood soon. Maybe bad for the USA, but good for films.

RAMA
 
I didn't include ANY EPIX/Netflix totals. :) Even if they had expired, whatever total it was would have been counted. I simply don't have information to include them.

Ummm...

Netflix also signed a deal to run EPIX films but I don't know what the cost was. The total here could be as high as $80-100 million. I'm only counting $60 million.
 
In other words, I didn't include that in my total of $604 million. If I did, it would have been higher than that. I only counted $60 million:

*$15-30 million times the streaming sites: $15 million lower figure: That's at least $60 million. Netflix also signed a deal to run EPIX films but I don't know what the cost was. The total here could be as high as $80-100 million. I'm only counting $60 million.

 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top