Yeah it's a big flub but i didn't notice. Voyagers apparent relativistic speed in Einstentonian space was x, while Enterprise was y. Of course, they both moved at the Speed of Plot which was a lot slower in Voyager, so maybe that accounts for it?
Canon: How many times is enough?
- Thread starter Tallguy
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In season 1 of TNG, Data gives an estimate of the Enterprise D's speed in some detail, working out at 10,000 lightyears a year at maximum warp, with time for cooloffs. In the pilot of Voyager, a ship that is the "fastest in the fleet" can (using the same principle) only travel 1000 lightyears per year at most.
So I was wrong, she's only 10 times slower.
And Kronos is 40 lightyears away from Earth, Vulcan is only 16 yet during TOS can take up to 48 hours to reach, Kling/Kronos would be longer. The NX-01 meandering all over the place at Warp 4 for about half the journey makes it there in 4 days. Making her as fast as the maximum warp of the upper TOS era at least.
Is it? The kelvinverse gives its location as "Omega Leonis" which is apparently about 106 ly from year.
This is one of the things that makes me think that it was Enterprise, not STXI, that rebooted the franchise. Star Trek: Enterprise is basically the TOS of the Kelvinverse.
Wow, the Starcharts (2003?) maps made it seem a lot closer to the 40-ish mark. Then again it's the only map that showed it so they could easily change what they wanted.
Well the graphic in STID gives the name of Omega Leonis, and Star Trek Online kind of echoes this by having Qonos in the middle of the "Omega Leonis Sector Bloc." When you actually pace it out on the galaxy map grid over there, it comes up to 100 to 120 light years.
Yes, I know STO isn't exactly (anything close to being) canon, but the relative placement works pretty well in context. Basically, the reason the Klingons are so dangerous to the Federation isn't because they're particularly dangerous AS A SPECIES (Starfleet could curb-stomp them in any sort of real war) but because they're inconveniently CLOSE to Federation space and to important resource zones, they have this annoying habit of being both angry and in the way when you need to get anywhere.
I think that's an oversimplification of warp travel, or what variables we might imagine warp travel consists of.
In TNG's "The Price" They fly through a wormhole that takes them "70,000 light years" to the "Delta Quadrant." 2 Ferengi get lost on the other side. When Geordi & Data return, the Ferengi captain is like "Where's my men?!" and Geordi says "set your course for the Delta Quadrant, you mind find them in about 70 years or so."
In DS9, they had the other wormhole that took them about the same distance, and took the same amount of time to get back the long way.
Also, Voyager travels at warp 6 normally, which I think Picard does also.
Really, it's that one line in "The Price" that started all this. Because the premise in "Emissary" was basically inspired by "The Price" and borrowed alot of its plot logic, including its basic assumption about speed (Sisko later quotes this to Kai Opaka). But that line was based on the idea that the Ferengi ship probably can't sustain high warp for any period of time and would have a cruising speed around warp 8 (same as the Enterprise-D). That's why their figures in "Q Who" are so dramatically different: 7,000 light years in just two years is their figure for MAXIMUM WARP, which basically means "a little faster than warp nine."
By the time DS9 came around, they had forgotten what the figure from "The Price" was based on, and then Voyager copied it from DS9, having forgotten that "Emissary" was based on "The Price." In the end, the entire premise of Voyager as a TV show was based on a misunderstanding of a throwaway line in an unrelated episode that most people never even noticed in the first place.
Star Trek Canon, ladies and gentlemen!
Exactly. Just tell a good story.
7,000 light years in 2 years is, we have to assume, how fast the Enterprise can get back from that system they ended up. That doesn't mean that warp factors, time, and distances can be simply equated to mph(or km/h) in your Nissan truck whilst driving across a straight desert road in Nevada.
Yes, I agree that "The Price" was probably the basis for both shows. The Ferengi ships were said to be a match for the Enterprise. There's no reason to assume that it would take one ship longer(or maybe u said that) or that Voyager should take more or less time. Voyager may have a higher maximum warp capability, but they can only use it for a few hours or days or something.
For a long road trip around the galaxy, they would have to travel at whatever the optimum "speed" to fuel consumption ratio.
The Price quote works for Voyager as the Ferengi ended up fairly close to where they did, apparently. Just ask the Grand Proxy...
In DS9, the other end of the wormhole must be a similar distance with similar theoretical obstacles.
She doesn't say "Even at Warp 9.97995.47, it would take..." Ships can't travel at maximum warp for very long.
So? Nothing about that gives Vulcan a moon.
Who says so? Just some Johnny-come-lately who didn't care about canon or who didn't bother to ask before diving in?
50? My sources say 2 orbs – not moons – and considering this is a trinary system (one large star, one red dwarf, one white dwarf), and Vulcan apparently has since been given a sister planet (two planets orbiting each other, one with a moon, no less, but not Vulcan), all of that can be explained as something other than a moon.
So, no weather where you're from? No dust storms, either? And with two other suns in the sky, which ones are up, and what light is shining through the atmosphere that day is just unknown since nobody is looking at that kind of detail.
As stupid and as lazy I think those inclusions were, all could be and have been more or less reconciled with canon, and Vulcan still has no "moon." A sister planet with a moon, apparently, and Delta Vega (God, what a moronic choice for a name, particularly as it is not even a native Vulcan name for the place) possibly with a highly eccentric orbit that brings it close enough to Vulcan to see each other as discs in the sky, however rarely that configuration might occur, still doesn't violate canon. Spock did not say, "Lt. Uhura, Vulcan has no moon, or a sister planet, or a nearly intersecting orbit with another planet that gets so close once every 237 years (or whatever) you might think it's a moon if you didn't know better, but Vulcan has no moon, I assure you. I'd know, as surely as I'd know if I had a brother or not." No. He didn't say that. And yes, he apparently has a brother – half brother, anyway. Not mentioning it until later is not a violation of canon.
Most things are relative.
I'm not sure what you mean, but the warp scale is all over the place and quite different from ENT and TOS to TNG and on, as I admitted – mostly due to a poor understanding of the enormity of space, or most people not bothering to make whatever calculations they can.
The warp scale has changed, several times, and its apparent dependency on other factors that are not often mentioned make a difference, like subspace density or subspace corridors or other factors like where they happen to be and where they happen to be going and the subspace conditions that day. Sometimes it's little more than saying just because your ship's maximum speed is X doesn't mean it is traveling at X all the time, or can't even go faster (with the equivalent of a tailwind and drift in subspace, for example). And with Janeway stopping to explore all the time, or the likely off camera lay overs for maintenance and barter with advanced civilizations since handy starbases aren't an option, I'd expect her average rate to be low, despite a warp capability of 9.9 or whatever it was. The 75 year estimate was a best case scenario assuming no short cuts and no delays. It otherwise would probably have taken 200 years. Luckily, with short cuts, it was only 7 and everybody got back before they could legally be declared dead. Ha ha.
As for what Data said in one episode, did he also mention which warp scale he was using? Which episode? Well, it might not matter. What somebody says in an off handed way in one episode doesn't hold up well against what is a foundational fact for an entire series, like Voyager. And like I've admitted, speeds and distances are often not foundational to the story so much so that a simple retcon would fix it (even if it would then appear to be less dramatic)
Who cares? A lot of people do. I find it more mystifying when somebody doesn't, and even almost amazing when somebody seems upset when somebody else does. Fiction of any stripe should strive for consistency, and it should make sense (at least within the given parameters of that fictional universe).
I'm unfamiliar, but I know it's not canon, as most Trek stories in books and novels aren't, so if that required a deviation from canon, that's fine since it's not going to become canon and others don't have to live with the consequences. I'm not sure what required a moon, if that's what you're saying, so I can't say exactly how else it might have been done. But if it did violate canon, I'd say it is not as good as virtually the same story that managed to follow canon.
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Considering the people writing Star Trek have worked by "Ship go fast" for 51 years, not really.
Yes, actually, that's EXACTLY what it means.
Seven thousand light years in 943 days means 7.42 light years per day.
One thousand light years in 1000 days means 1 light year per day.
This tells us that Data, for some reason, believes the Enterprise-D's maximum warp is, on average, 7 times faster than Voyager's.
Go figure.
It's not an assumption, Voyager is canonically said to be faster -- like, ALOT faster -- than the Enterprise-D, while the Ferengi ship is said to be about equal to the Enterprise-D in engine performance, among other things. But because the figure quoted in "The price" factors in the fact that the Enterprise could not possibly sustain its maximum speed for 70 years, it gives the 1ly/day figure instead of 7ly/day figure of "Q Who?" That is basically the difference between warp 8 and warp 9.
And that would be all well and good if Voyager had been described as just an ordinary starship, or maybe even an older design with a long service history. Problem is, in its VERY FIRST EPISODE we have Stadi telling Tom Paris that it has a "maximum sustainable cruise velocity of warp 9.975." That's a velocity faster than the Enterprise-D could even REACH, let alone sustain.
Why did they trot out this ridiculously high speed figure for Voyager? Because Kewl Starship Is Kewl. Fans need to KNOW that Kewl Starship is Kewl, so we also establish that Kewl Sarship is Phast! But that particular story element didn't fit into what the show was ultimately trying to do, so they just sort of ignored it and went about their normal business.
So why the ship's "maximum sustainable cruise velocity" is not actually a cruising velocity, nor is it sustainable...
Idea for the future Kelvinverse Voyager reboot: USS Voyager is a small, fast survey ship that has been given the mission (and the dubious honor) of being the first Starfleet vessel to circumnavigate the milky way. At maximum warp it will take them 7 years to make the entire circuit of the galaxy, longer if they take a lot of stops or run into trouble. They will be farther from home than any other ship in history, and keep running into things that make them wonder if they should continue their mission or abort and head straight back home.
If the show gets cancelled, it means they got in over their heads and ran home. If it doesn't get canceled, then they went the distance and came back as heroes.
^ Amazing, an exchange that helpfully illustrates the point.
Warp speed is whatever it needs to be to make the story work. It's fast, but only just about fast enough to get there in time if you let her tear herself apart dammit. Funnily enough when centuries pass and warp drives become faster they carry on just about getting wherever they need to be just in time.
Warp 9.999 will get you away from the scary bad thing, unless the plot requires you get caught, in which case it won't.
Warp speed is whatever it needs to be to make the story work. It's fast, but only just about fast enough to get there in time if you let her tear herself apart dammit. Funnily enough when centuries pass and warp drives become faster they carry on just about getting wherever they need to be just in time.
Warp 9.999 will get you away from the scary bad thing, unless the plot requires you get caught, in which case it won't.
They stated in the show many times how long they could maintain their maximum warp. It was similar to how long the Enterprise could maintain its maximum warp. It's only a few hours to a day or two.
Voyager can go faster than the Enterpruse at Maximum warp. That doesn't mean that Voyager is faster at travelling a distance that will take multiple generations.
It's about 70 years in TNG, about 70 in Voyager, and about 70 in DS9. Is that(Perish the thought!) Continuity?!
And those are rough estimates for spanning a whole galaxy of uncharted space.
POP QUIZ:
My sister lives in Chicago, off of Irving Pkwy, at the eastern end near Lake Shore dr.
I live about 75 miles away(as the crow flies).
I wish to go visit her. I will drive there in my horseless carriage built within the last 5 years.
How long will the trip take me, one way?
You have no map, but have a calculator.
Voyager can go faster than the Enterpruse at Maximum warp. That doesn't mean that Voyager is faster at travelling a distance that will take multiple generations.
It's about 70 years in TNG, about 70 in Voyager, and about 70 in DS9. Is that(Perish the thought!) Continuity?!
And those are rough estimates for spanning a whole galaxy of uncharted space.
POP QUIZ:
My sister lives in Chicago, off of Irving Pkwy, at the eastern end near Lake Shore dr.
I live about 75 miles away(as the crow flies).
I wish to go visit her. I will drive there in my horseless carriage built within the last 5 years.
How long will the trip take me, one way?
You have no map, but have a calculator.
Depends, are you running from or to something? Is the engine about to explode? Is your sister under threat?
Also, is it an African or European Crow?
in "Q Who?", Picard doesn't ask for the travel time to the E-D's previous position but to the nearest starbase. Therefore, the two year, seven month travel time is probably not the time to travel 7000 light years, since the referenced starbase could be considerably closer.
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