Measure of a Man: what would really have happened in such a scenario?

[gillmanjr]

It's another of those examples of Starfleet & 24th century humanity being so advanced that their training covers an almost absurdly wide ranging number of fields. Engineering, astrophysics, biology, assorted other sciences, diplomacy, law, military & combat tactics, the history of countless cultures & I'm probably forgetting some. Hell, if you go into medicine, and end up commanding a Starship like the Pasteur, I imagine you have to know everything about everything. How some of these people had spare time to learn to play a musical instrument, even as just a hobby, is totally beyond me

This made me LOL. But I don't think its just their training. You are thinking like a member of the 21st century here on earth, where the primary day to day goal/necessity for most (civilized) people is to make MONEY. And for 99.9% of us that means working a job where you pretty much do the same or similar things every day. When you take that out of the equation who knows what you could actually accomplish. I know if I had been a billionaire at age 20 I would have done a LOT of stuff and learned a lot about different cultures. Even a lot of wealthy people continue doing the same thing (running the same company, etc) for the rest of their lives just to make more money, though I will never understand why. Anyway now we're way off topic.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Everyone is entitled to a legal defense, and sometimes, people are assigned cases they do not want. Lawyers are required to zealously represent their client and do their best, so you can't really take a dive.

And Louvois couldn't wait like ONE DAY (if that) for a suitable legal staff to be shuttled over? The case had to proceed at that very minute? Hard to believe.

 

[Mojochi]

This made me LOL. But I don't think its just their training. You are thinking like a member of the 21st century here on earth, where the primary day to day goal/necessity for most (civilized) people is to make MONEY. And for 99.9% of us that means working a job where you pretty much do the same or similar things every day. When you take that out of the equation who knows what you could actually accomplish. I know if I had been a billionaire at age 20 I would have done a LOT of stuff and learned a lot about different cultures. Even a lot of wealthy people continue doing the same thing (running the same company, etc) for the rest of their lives just to make more money, though I will never understand why. Anyway now we're way off topic.

But they still have professions & career paths etc... Part of becoming good at something is repetition. These people are still pilots, engineers, scientists, doctors. They still do the same stuff we do. They just have different goals mostly. There is no mistaking in my mind that we're supposed to see these people as being slightly more evolved than us, such that these things come easier to them, & therefore they can take on more, or at the very least, there has been a grand societal shift, where having access to an inexhaustible amount of resources & encyclopedic knowledge has spurred them as individuals to use it to its fullest

Truthfully however, we as a species tend to decline in circumstances like that. We actually thrive better in the face of opposition, & resistance. Necessity being the mother of invention etc... It's pretty cool that they can do all this stuff, but it's also hard to identify with at times, because our very nature opposes it mostly. It really is fantasy at its most fantastic. They are supermen, in a way, & their superpower is technology has brought them an era of great personal growth

 

[Triskelion]

And there is no accounting for experience. No surprise it quickly descended into "putting the system ITSELF!" on trial. Oh here we go....

What this episode needed was Denny Crane and Daniel Jackson.

But yeah, this premise does dance on the razor's edge between "Non-economics" vs "Property Ownership". More black-boxed magic answers from the future.

Or the short answer...Because Plot.

 

[Timo]

I could very well see Starfleet, Louvois, Nakamura and even Picard going for this trial exactly as posited here. It's not as if Data could ever lose, given all the arguments reiterated in this thread for the umpteenth time. But it's an excellent opportunity to slam shut the case and gag that annoying jerk Maddox once and for all. Due to his monomaniac shortsightedness, Maddox can be lured into a quick and risk-free trial which his opponents (Starfleet, Louvois, Nakamura and Picard) engineer so that the prosecution is trusted upon a dilettante. Frontier justice at its best!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Half the people's Facebook feeds would be filled with stories that say:
Walking Toaster Wants Human Rights, Taxpayers Will Foot the Bill

The other half of people's Facebook feeds would be filled with stories that say:
Slavery Still Alive In 24th Century, Sentient Android's Basic Rights At Stake

 

[Nakita Akita]

This made me LOL. But I don't think its just their training. You are thinking like a member of the 21st century here on earth, where the primary day to day goal/necessity for most (civilized) people is to make MONEY. And for 99.9% of us that means working a job where you pretty much do the same or similar things every day. When you take that out of the equation who knows what you could actually accomplish. I know if I had been a billionaire at age 20 I would have done a LOT of stuff and learned a lot about different cultures. Even a lot of wealthy people continue doing the same thing (running the same company, etc) for the rest of their lives just to make more money, though I will never understand why. Anyway now we're way off topic.

I always see the entire no money-do what you want thing as silly.
I've known some wealthy young people, parents gave them everything types and frankly they are often way less responsible than some poor schmuck.
They get college paid for and they manage to barely graduate with a degree in Women's Studies for example.

My dad paid for everything for me, but I felt like such a dork I had to strike out on my own.
If I hadn't felt like a dork, and the Goverment was paying everything for every one, I'd probably STILL be a Freshmsn in college on my 37 th Major!

 

[Mojochi]

I always see the entire no money-do what you want thing as silly.
I've known some wealthy young people, parents gave them everything types and frankly they are often way less responsible than some poor schmuck.
They get college paid for and they manage to barely graduate with a degree in Women's Studies for example.

My dad paid for everything for me, but I felt like such a dork I had to strike out on my own.
If I hadn't felt like a dork, and the Goverment was paying everything for every one, I'd probably STILL be a Freshmsn in college on my 37 th Major!

And that's the fine point of it. While Utopia is a wonderful dream to have, it's ultimately unrealistic, because the one definitive truth about the human animal is that resistance is the forge in which we hone our ability to thrive. Without struggle & challenge thrust upon us, we wither away into uselessness, as surely as an astronaut's muscle & bone, in a prolonged zero-g environment. If you help the hatchling shed its egg, it will not have the wherewithall to meet to rigors of the world, & dies

 

[Nightdiamond]

At times, there were some pretty wrong things that slipped by in Trek episodes that you wouldn't believe.

Just 2 seasons later in that episode Clues--the one where Data is hiding information from the crew to keep the Enterprise from being destroyed, Picard tells Data that if he keeps refusing to tell what happened, he would be court martialed and Starfleet might end up stripping him down to his bare wires to find out why.

The funny thing is, nobody notices anything wrong with it because it slips by so easily. When I first saw this scene I didn't notice anything wrong. It seemed like a normal thing to say. Then I realized, they were talking about taking Data apart, piece by piece to his wires, whether he likes it or not.

He's a sentient Federation citizen. And the rights were spelled out 2 years prior. Nobody was even killed. A society that doesn't believe in the death penalty would dissect a decorated Starfleet officer for withholding info that he says is protecting his crew and ship.

Would they dissect a human Starfleet crewman for withholding information under the same circumstances?

 

[Mojochi]

At times, there were some pretty wrong things that slipped by in Trek episodes that you wouldn't believe.

Just 2 seasons later in that episode Clues--the one where Data is hiding information from the crew to keep the Enterprise from being destroyed, Picard tells Data that if he keeps refusing to tell what happened, he would be court martialed and Starfleet might end up stripping him down to his bare wires to find out why.

The funny thing is, nobody notices anything wrong with it because it slips by so easily. When I first saw this scene I didn't notice anything wrong. It seemed like a normal thing to say. Then I realized, they were talking about taking Data apart, piece by piece to his wires, whether he likes it or not.

He's a sentient Federation citizen. And the rights were spelled out 2 years prior. Nobody was even killed. A society that doesn't believe in the death penalty would dissect a decorated Starfleet officer for withholding info that he says is protecting his Delete repeated word

Would they dissect a human Starfleet crewman for withholding information under the same circumstances?

I found that odd too, but I choose to take it as Picard making a statement on the ongoing android bigotry of Starfleet. They did after all come for Data's daughter shortly after his rights were established in a court of their law. The thing is, I imagine Picard may be right in this case. While they may not completely dissect an organic lifeform to determine why they'd went beserk, something tells me they might go to that extreme with an android, because of how fleeting their respect for his rights have been.

I never took it as Picard approving of that possibility, but that he might be rather concerned that it may yet again come to that (Plus I think he was trying to use it to push a little intimidation in the situation) Data is after all evidently lying to superiors to conceal a truth that seemingly is endangering one or more, if not all, of the crew. If word of that got back to HQ, that he's again endangering people. Would they really abstain from thinking it's a mechanical issue to be sussed out with intense scrutiny that may come to dismantlement of at least his positronic matrix?

Add up the history. Data nearly didn't get into Starfleet over his status. His rights were brought before a court after that fact (Which is rather ridiculous). His offspring would probably have been removed from his custody had she not died. Officers have downright refused to serve under him in command situations, AND in all the years we see him serve, he is never promoted, because the next step up would be to being in direct command as captain or XO. My guess is that those few hours as captain of the Sutherland is the only time that guy ever served as the assigned captain of a starship. The rest of the time he was only lucky enough to be pro tem.

Hell, if I were Data, I'd be trying like hell to get Jellico to take me on as his XO. It's one of only a few positive references he's probably got to advance. He did quite well serving under him

 

[Nightdiamond]

Yeah, when you look at season 1 all the way up until 5 and beyond Data gets treated pretty unfairly. Not to mention Dr. Pulaski who was very blunt with her bigotry of Data as an android, although she seemed to soften later on.

When Data gets emotions the treatment seems to fade away. (Probably because he can get mad and speak up now)


I don't know even know how they were making a case for Data being the property of Starfleet in the first place. Maddox never explained why, only said 'of course' when they asked if Data was property.
They never made the case whatsoever that Data was the property of Starfleet. Only that he was found by Starfleet officers.

And then the court trial revolved around if Data was sentient and his abilities. When Picard gave a convincing argument that Data was sentient, they dropped the case, and Philippa ruled Data had the right to choose.

The logic was, since Data was a machine, he was automatically property. They never explained why or went into legal details. It was all focused on whether Data was sentient or not.

 

[Tenacity]

He's a sentient Federation citizen

Not all Starfleet personnel are Federation citizens, was it ever mention that Data is "a citizen?"

 

[Qonundrum]

IMHO, Riker would have been asked to recuse himself.

But then there'd be no story.

And Kirk Prime is right; Riker was assigned a case he did not want and had to be professional. Like how lawyers get cases they don't because they have to represent the other side, it happens and more often than people think, especially in real life.

I truly adored how Riker had to do something as uncomfortable as remaining professional and detached, especially in early-TNG where conflict was a big no-no. And Riker was forced to be it, and he does it unwaveringly. And everyone involved - crew, writer, cast - all rose to the occasion. "Measure" is one of TNG's finest and holds up extremely well, even with the rough edges season 2 still had (TNG's first three seasons are remarkable in terms of production style and how it went from "yet another 80s' half-baked half-regurgitation cash-in" to being its own show was phenomenal in its own right, given how many shows also originated from shows made in the 60s (but were all drek. Even with TNG's first season's mess, there was still something above and beyond.) Munsters Today, Bonanza The Next Generation, The New Monkees (FTW - the songs were actually quite good, but they should have been their own show and brand, just hijacking the name "Monkees" killed the project before it started), and so on... at least they were continuations and not "reboots" as we know them to be nowadays. Except for "New Monkees", that was probably the industry's first reboot and an omen nobody paid attention to since all of those other reboots (Bionic Woman, Knight Rider, V, etc, were all shining examples of being superficial nonsense with nothing to offer except a name to awaken delightful nostalgia memories. No substance of any sort. And that's what made TNG unique. It may have dated since, but it's still more rewatchable than most modern day remakes... ditto for the original V, Knight Rider, The Bionic Woman, et al...)

But back to Trekville: "Emissary" sorta nods to the same "do your job the way officers are supposed to" concept with Sisko not wanting to take the station - and it's a solid enough trope for any story, which is one of the best tropes TNG onward used - but "Measure" really ups the ante by taking it to a directly personal level and strongly.

 

[Qonundrum]

The Federation is racist and speciest, I would not be surprised if they forced Julian Bashir to be sterilised.

Not necessary. In the real world, people with his personality type (optimism, happiness, wanting to help, coordination issues, saying things without knowing or thinking of the other person (e.g. his intro with Kira became somewhat explosive), some Aspergers, etc) rarely get laid to begin with.

((spoiler: I know from personal experience, my personality is not entirely dissimilar to Bashir's... though I've never been genetically engineered... ))

 

[Stephen!]

Picard: Prove to the court that I am sentient.
Louvois: Objection. This is irrelevant. This isn't about you.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Not all Starfleet personnel are Federation citizens, was it ever mention that Data is "a citizen?"

I don't remember any exact references to Data as a Fed citizen, but I always assumed he was. I'm pretty sure there were some indirect ones though. Omicron Theta was in Fed space and an earth colony, so his birthplace would be the Federation.


It seemed so weird that they would let Data into Starfleet and grant him a commission if they didn't consider him a Federation citizen. He would have to have taken an oath, sign a document etc. It's pretty odd after 20 something years they then decide he's property and decide he never had the right to choose for himself.


They showed no legal basis for him to be the property of Starfleet. It wasn't stated that Noonien Soong, his creator, was working for Starfleet. Or was using Starfleet materials.

The only thing they established was that Starfleet officers found Data--and they didn't even activate him, he had been automatically activated and alert when they got to him.

 

[MacLeod]

I found that odd too, but I choose to take it as Picard making a statement on the ongoing android bigotry of Starfleet. They did after all come for Data's daughter shortly after his rights were established in a court of their law. The thing is, I imagine Picard may be right in this case. While they may not completely dissect an organic lifeform to determine why they'd went beserk, something tells me they might go to that extreme with an android, because of how fleeting their respect for his rights have been.

I never took it as Picard approving of that possibility, but that he might be rather concerned that it may yet again come to that (Plus I think he was trying to use it to push a little intimidation in the situation) Data is after all evidently lying to superiors to conceal a truth that seemingly is endangering one or more, if not all, of the crew. If word of that got back to HQ, that he's again endangering people. Would they really abstain from thinking it's a mechanical issue to be sussed out with intense scrutiny that may come to dismantlement of at least his positronic matrix?

Add up the history. Data nearly didn't get into Starfleet over his status. His rights were brought before a court after that fact (Which is rather ridiculous). His offspring would probably have been removed from his custody had she not died. Officers have downright refused to serve under him in command situations, AND in all the years we see him serve, he is never promoted, because the next step up would be to being in direct command as captain or XO. My guess is that those few hours as captain of the Sutherland is the only time that guy ever served as the assigned captain of a starship. The rest of the time he was only lucky enough to be pro tem.

Hell, if I were Data, I'd be trying like hell to get Jellico to take me on as his XO. It's one of only a few positive references he's probably got to advance. He did quite well serving under him

In NEM wasn't Data going to be the XO of the Enterprise once Riker left?

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

In NEM wasn't Data going to be the XO of the Enterprise once Riker left?

That was certainly the implication from the dialogue:

PICARD: Duty. ...A starship captain's life is filled with solemn duty. I have commanded men in battle. I have negotiated peace treaties between implacable enemies. I have represented the Federation in first contact with twenty-seven alien species, but none of this compares to my solemn duty today ...as best man. Now, I know that on an occasion such as this it is expected that I be gracious and fulsome in my praise on the wonders of this blessed union. But have you two considered what you are doing to me? Of course you're happy, but what about my needs? This is all a damned inconvenience, and while you're happily settling in on the Titan, I will be training my new first officer. You all know him. He's a tyrannical martinet who'll never, ever allow me to go on away missions!
DATA: That is the regulation, sir. Starfleet Code. Section twelve. Paragraph four...
PICARD: Data!
DATA: Sir?
PICARD: Shut up.
DATA: Yes sir.

 

[LJS1138]

In NEM wasn't Data going to be the XO of the Enterprise once Riker left?

Yes. While it wasn't explicitly stated in the clips that made it into the movie, there's a deleted "toast to new worlds" scene with Data and Picard and a deleted scene at the end where Picard has to get a new first officer (Martin Madden).

But yeah, while Measure of a Man is a great episode, if Data hadn't been a Federation citizen, he'd have needed to be sponsored for the academy, like Nog was, and there's no mention of that. If he had been considered property, they wouldn't have made/allowed Data into the academy. Bruce Maddox was the sole dissenting view on the board, which means that Data was considered sentient by a near-unanimous decision. What I like to think, for head-canon, from MoAM, is that the admiral wasn't told of Maddox's plans, and that Maddox hadn't thought that Data would have objections. So, at the brand new starbase with only one legal person there (and she was recently back after a 10+ year hiatus), Maddox tried to reverse the previous rulings. Maddox, in his zeal, became an unethical scientist. The way he is at the end of the episode, I'd like to think he had a change of heart, and since he and Data correspond (and Data sends him logs), I like to think that eventually they became friends instead of adversaries.

 

[BillJ]

Data would have been parts spread across the floor in Maddux' lab.

As much as I like Data, he is a toaster. An advanced toaster, but a toaster. Same with the Doctor from Voyager: holographic toaster.