Spoilers Wonder Woman - Grading & Discussion

[Gaith]

I wasn't telling you to dumb down your analysis, I was just commenting.
I honestly have to wonder like you can ever enjoy anything.

And now you're implying I'm some kind of joyless freak for asking tough questions about the movie. If you don't want to engage with my points, don't engage with them. There's no need to publicly question my ability to enjoy entertainment while you don't reply to me.

Posing as. That's my only criticism of the movie is they skipped too quickly to the beam warfare instead of having Ares do his subtle window trickery some more. It's actually quite clever, what's gong on there and the importance of having Ares be a Brit, but it's brushed by far too quickly.

So, again: "was there a Sir Morgan in-universe, or did Ares lead his entire life from birth? The Brits are pretty rigid about who's a Knight and an MP and all that. Was Ares just goading Morgan on like he was Ludendorff? If so, then I agree with those who said his true form, flashbacks included, shouldn't have been Professor Lupin."

And yes, there was cheering during the action sequences, but (again, to me) that was more finally seeing a female superhero kicking ass in her own film regardless of whose asses she kicked.

Obviously. But, to me, whose ass she was kicking - no, killing - matters, at least a little bit. (And again, when the movie wants you to cheer numerous German deaths while never once wanting you to cheer an Allied death - I don't think Ares really counts as an Allied casualty, in his larger context - your statement that "the German soldiers were just soldiers who weren't judged anymore than Steve Trevor was" is objectively false.)

After all, shouldn't action movie feminism aspire to a bit more than being just as mindless as male-centric action movies? Look, I'm not calling this an immoral or venomous movie along the lines of Bayformers or London Has Fallen. It's fine, a perfectly average, competent popcorn flick with a terrific lead performance. But, again, in a movie discussion thread, I reserve the right to discuss the movie I paid good money to see.

Also... child in intellectual terms?

Yes. Someone who doesn't know what the mere concept of marriage is, and has zero knowledge of human history or contemporary world politics, not to mention a complete ignorance of the human capacity for being cruel to others is, intellectually speaking, a child. Children learn about the viciousness of the species in part by going to school, and experiencing childish fights and meanness that gradually educate them about how even adults, who should know and be better, can also be mean and awful to each other. It's a key aspect of social and emotional development - but, as the only child on Themiscyra, Diana never even learned that. Which, yes, makes her profoundly childish and ignorant, and that's a very dangerous trait for a warrior who unconcernedly kills her opponents - regardless of how many books on eroticism and anatomy she's read, or her ability to consent to sex.

 

[MadeIndescribable]

After all, shouldn't action movie feminism aspire to a bit more than being just as mindless as male-centric action movies?

You think Wonder Woman blasting across no-MAN'S-land was mindless?

Surely I wasn't the only one getting Eowyn flashbacks when she defied being told "This is No Man's Land, Diana! It means no man can cross it, alright?"

 

[Gaith]

You think Wonder Woman blasting across no-MAN'S-land was mindless?

You're damn right, I do. As the battle on the Themiscrya beach made clear, Amazonian women are easily felled by bullets. Diana didn't survive the charge because she was a woman, she survived the charge because she was a demigod. (Also, her special shield from the tower could withstand machine gun fire for some unexplained reason.) Had she been a son of Zeus, cisgender or trans, the result would have been the same. Éowyn beat the Witch King by using a prophecy loophole as a surprise attack. Diana survived that stretch of No Man's Land (curiously devoid of any apparent barbed wire) through brute strength - which, yeah, is a pretty good definition of mindlessness.

 

[MadeIndescribable]

You're damn right, I do. As the battle on the Themiscrya beach made clear, Amazonian women are easily felled by bullets. Diana didn't survive the charge because she was a woman, she survived the charge because she was a demigod. (Also, her special shield from the tower could withstand machine gun fire for some unexplained reason.) Had she been a son of Zeus, cisgender or trans, the result would have been the same. Éowyn beat the Witch King by using a prophecy loophole as a surprise attack. Diana survived that stretch of No Man's Land (curiously devoid of any apparent barbed wire) through brute strength - which, yeah, is a pretty good definition of mindlessness.

That moment was as much, perhaps even more, about the symbolism rather than anything else. You know films can be taken as more than just literal visuals, right?

 

[JD]

So, again: "was there a Sir Morgan in-universe, or did Ares lead his entire life from birth? The Brits are pretty rigid about who's a Knight and an MP and all that. Was Ares just goading Morgan on like he was Ludendorff? If so, then I agree with those who said his true form, flashbacks included, shouldn't have been Professor Lupin."

I had assumed Morgan was entirely a fake person taken on by Ares. Didn't he look like Morgan during his flashback to his arrival on Earth?

Obviously. But, to me, whose ass she was kicking - no, killing - matters, at least a little bit. (And again, when the movie wants you to cheer numerous German deaths while never once wanting you to cheer an Allied death - I don't think Ares really counts as an Allied casualty, in his larger context - your statement that "the German soldiers were just soldiers who weren't judged anymore than Steve Trevor was" is objectively false.)

For me at least, my liking that scene had nothing whatsoever with who she was fighting, I just thought it was a cool action scene, which was made even more special by the fact that it was a woman doing the ass kicking.

 

[Thestral]

So, again: "was there a Sir Morgan in-universe, or did Ares lead his entire life from birth? The Brits are pretty rigid about who's a Knight and an MP and all that. Was Ares just goading Morgan on like he was Ludendorff? If so, then I agree with those who said his true form, flashbacks included, shouldn't have been Professor Lupin."

He's a god. I'm sure posing as a British fellow - knight and MP or no - for some brief amount of time (from his perspective) to facilitate more devastation and human suffering was no big deal. I'm sure Sir Morgan isn't the first human guise he's taken on and wouldn't have been the last.

Actually, ok, that's my only other criticism that she apparently does actually kill Ares. It's by no means a big deal, but it would've been interesting to me if after she caresses Steve's photo she'd turned around and we caught just the briefest glimpse of Thewlis in the crowd, smiling and gives Diana a wink before turning to walk away.

Yes. Someone who doesn't know what the mere concept of marriage is, and has zero knowledge of human history or contemporary world politics, not to mention a complete ignorance of the human capacity for being cruel to others is, intellectually speaking, a child. Children learn about the viciousness of the species in part by going to school, and experiencing childish fights and meanness that gradually educate them about how even adults, who should know and be better, can also be mean and awful to each other. It's a key aspect of social and emotional development - but, as the only child on Themiscyra, Diana never even learned that. Which, yes, makes her profoundly childish and ignorant, and that's a very dangerous trait for a warrior who unconcernedly kills her opponents - regardless of how many books on eroticism and anatomy she's read, or her ability to consent to sex.

It's clear that she's quite knowledgeable of the human capacity for cruelty and viciousness. She simply can't accept it in the "good guys" at first. In fact, that's a key part of her entire arc. She's naive, not a child.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

She simply can't accept it in the "good guys" at first. In fact, that's a key part of her entire arc. She's naive, not a child.

At last! Someone gets it.

 

[Trekker4747]

Gaith must be fun at parties.

 

[Nerys Myk]

If the Amazons are what they should be in the comics, Amazons v. Parademons would be awesome.

But the Amazons in the movie weren't nearly as tough if they got mowed down by WWI soldiers.

Who was left standing after that fight?
Hint: (It wasn't the Germans)

 

[Lakenheath 72]

Wonder Woman is holding up rather nicely as it heads into its third week. The film earned $57.2 million and experienced a drop of 45% from last week. Most films experience over 50% of a drop in the second week. (Its biggest competitor, The Mummy, did far worse than expected. It is counting on the international market to save its bacon.)

 

[Nerys Myk]

Gotta say I really liked it. Gal and Chris were great as Diana and Steve. Great chemistry. Gal really lights up the screen with her smile. Pine has a very Clooney like charm in this. The storyline and setting worked well together, giving the film a weight usually lacking in Superhero films.

 

[Ovation]

If ever Indiana Jones gets a reboot, I vote for Pine.

Film was great. Saw it with my 15 year old daughter, who loved it. Looking forward to watching this incarnation of Wonder Woman for as long as Gadot is willing to play the role.

 

[DBR]

It. Just. Worked.

Gadot nailed it. Pine nailed it.

It wasn't dark, dreary and depressing like BvS and Suicide Squad: it was fun, it was serious, it was light, it was intense. Again: it was FUN.

I know Zack Syder is having a tough time right now, but get him the hell away from the DCEU.

 

[Deckerd]

It's the first superhero movie I've seen for a very long time that I liked unreservedly.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

It. Just. Worked.

Gadot nailed it. Pine nailed it.

It wasn't dark, dreary and depressing like BvS and Suicide Squad: it was fun, it was serious, it was light, it was intense. Again: it was FUN.

I know Zack Syder is having a tough time right now, but get him the hell away from the DCEU.

That shocking moment, when you learn that Snyder helped craft the story for Wonder Woman and produced the movie.

Castigate him for his failures and ignore him for his successes. Can't win for losing.

 

[MadeIndescribable]

That shocking moment, when you learn that Snyder helped craft the story for Wonder Woman and produced the movie.

Castigate him for his failures and ignore him for his successes. Can't win for losing.

Can't we just blame him for the similarities with Captain America?

On a more serious note though, is there anyway of knowing how much input he had? For all we know, his crafting could merely have been the Paris bookends and how it links into the DCEU as a whole, but would still get story credit...

 

[DigificWriter]

Patty Jenkins has said that she and Snyder worked very closely together, and we saw BtS stills of him standing next to her on set as she gave Gal instructions.

At this point, trying to 'downplay' Snyder's links to this film is living in Alternative Facts-Ville.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

Can't we just blame him for the similarities with Captain America?

On a more serious note though, is there anyway of knowing how much input he had? For all we know, his crafting could merely have been the Paris bookends and how it links into the DCEU as a whole, but would still get story credit...

Well, Captain America and Wonder Woman were born around the same time. I believe there is a 9 month difference between their debuts. Cap in March and Wondy in December 1941. Similarities are likely to happen. However, as WB/DC has left WWII open, they should give us a JSA movie. That's what people want to see!

We won't know Snyder's amount of input until the home video release, I imagine. We know Snyder has been helming the direction of the DC films since MOS, and they're four films and soon to be five into this universe now. With Snyder retreating from public life while he deals with a family tragedy, I surmise we'll see less of him on future DC projects, interviews, and promotions. Have to wait for the commentary on home releases and behind the scenes featurettes.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

That shocking moment, when you learn that Snyder helped craft the story for Wonder Woman and produced the movie. .

True--some are Hell-bent on trying to separate Wonder Woman from the rest of the DC films, when Snyder's familiar, series-shaping touch was all over the Wonder Woman film, with an overall tone pointing to the Diana we see in the present day storyline. If some want this mythical "bright" superhero film (or a joke-a-minute copy of most Marvel movies), perhaps they should watch marathons of the Super Friends, where everyone smiles their way through "fights" (no one ever fought anything on those terrible shows) and the only consequences the characters face for their actions are...no, that never happens in bright cartoon land.

Can't we just blame him for the similarities with Captain America?

The numerous influences from Captain America: The First Avenger were a significant reason for this film's success; it was the perfect model for a super-powered character's coming-from-nowhere / goes to war plot. If anything, the Snyder haters should be pleased with his choices.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Well, Captain America and Wonder Woman were born around the same time. I believe there is a 9 month difference between their debuts. Cap in March and Wondy in December 1941. Similarities are likely to happen. However, as WB/DC has left WWII open, they should give us a JSA movie. That's what people want to see!

The similarities are from stuff added long after their debuts.