The Forgotten Enterprise (Pre-1701 - Robert April)

[Crazy Eddie]

He was a guest on board the 1701-B not commissioned/stationed/serving there.

A distinction without a difference, since Scotty didn't specify whether it was a ship he had "been on" or "served on" or commissioned on. He said "my old ship." For all the computer knew, he was asking about the Jenolan.

Fact: The 1701-D was the fifth Federation ship named USS Enterprise.

Unless, of course, it's the sixth ship and the computer was referring to PAST ships named Enterprise.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

A distinction without a difference, since Scotty didn't specify whether it was a ship he had "been on" or "served on" or commissioned on. He said "my old ship." For all the computer knew, he was asking about the Jenolan.

What does that have to do with where Scotty served? You claimed he served on three Enterprises. He didn't, he served on two Enterprises. Period.

Unless, of course, it's the sixth ship and the computer was referring to PAST ships named Enterprise.

Past and present. Again, this is the complete exchange:

COMPUTER: Please enter programme.
SCOTT: The android at the bar said you could show me my old ship. Let me see it.
COMPUTER: Insufficient data. Please specify parameters.
SCOTT: The Enterprise. Show me the Bridge of the Enterprise, you chattering piece of
COMPUTER: There have been five Federation ships with that name. Please specify by registry number.
SCOTT: NCC One Seven Oh One. No bloody A, B, C, or D.

It's pretty clear cut.

 

[The Wormhole]

Unless the computer is alluding to PREVIOUS Federation ships named Enterprise (since Scotty did begin the request saying "I want to see my old ship."). So the five ships could be

1. NCC-688
2. NCC-1701
3. NCC-1701-A
4. NCC-1701-B
5. NCC-1701-C

We know that wasn't the intention.

 

[ChristopherPike]

They'll be a relatively brief period of a couple decades in the early 23rd Century, when Earth Brexited from the Federation. They'll have an Enterprise in service then, which'll be airbrushed from the lineage because its Commander was anti-Fed, and part of the Terra Prime group wanting to make Earth great again.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Guys, we know they're not going to hold dear to a line James Doohan said in 1994, if they think squeezing a new Enterprise into the timeline would help them tell their story. They already did it once, with Enterprise NX-01, which Sisko and two DTI agents didn't remember in "Trials and Tribble-ations" when referring to "the first Enterprise"

Later, Troi explicitly calls NX-01 "The first Enterprise" in "These Are the Voyages"

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

Guys, we know they're not going to hold dear to a line James Doohan said in 1994, if they think squeezing a new Enterprise into the timeline would help them tell their story.

Of course that can happen. "New canon" trumps "old canon". But until that happens in DSC we're left with what we've already know. And what we know about the Enterprise(s) isn't something cryptic, it's very straight forward.

They already did it once, with Enterprise NX-01, which Sisko and two DTI agents didn't remember in "Trials and Tribble-ations" when referring to "the first Enterprise"


Later, Troi explicitly calls NX-01 "The first Enterprise" in "These Are the Voyages"

Yes, but they were careful and clever to do it in a way that didn't contradict anything that was said before. For example Archer's Enterprise was not part of the Federation but it was an Earth ship, it was never called the USS Enterprise, etc.

 

[Timo]

Or Spock's, for that matter.

That's exactly what I mean. All drama, from cop shows to sitcoms, is vulnerable to the "relative appears" attack, until and unless this is preempted by a throwaway line. Kirk's brother was nicely dealt with by showing him dead. But when Spock's brother was shot down, this was immediately voided: "I know you don't have a brother, man!"/"Stepbrother, sorry 'bout that". It's pretty close to lampshading, but the writers appear to be sufficiently ashamed of the trick not to try it a second time. Once per franchise is pretty standard, though.

Trek has stemmed the flow of extraneous Enterprises so effectively that we can only get flooded by those through the special nature of the show, by evoking parallel timelines. And they're making a huge deal about parallel timelines currently, but tantalizingly enough, only and specifically with the new movies and not with DIS.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Crazy Eddie]

What does that have to do with where Scotty served? You claimed he served on three Enterprises. He didn't, he served on two Enterprises. Period.

Three if you include the Enterprise-B, where he served as assistant transporter chief and science officer for half a day.

Past and present.

Not specified. "Have been" implies past, but not necessarily present.

Yes, but they were careful and clever to do it in a way that didn't contradict anything that was said before.

I would find it extremely difficult to describe anything that happened in that episode as "careful" or "clever."

Hell, they didn't even manage to avoid contradicting "The Pegasus."

For example Archer's Enterprise was not part of the Federation but it was an Earth ship, it was never called the USS Enterprise, etc.

And so the two Enterprises we never heard of might just as well have been HMS Enterprise.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

Three if you include the Enterprise-B, where he served as assistant transporter chief and science officer for half a day.

A friend gives you a ride with his car one afternoon. You start calling his car as "your old car"?

And initially you claimed he served there for "a day and a half". Now suddenly it's down to "half a day". Next it will be only for a couple of hours.

I would find it extremely difficult to describe anything that happened in that episode as "careful" or "clever."

Hell, they didn't even manage to avoid contradicting "The Pegasus."

The NX-01 wasn't first introduced in "These Are The Voyages".

And so the two Enterprises we never heard of might just as well have been HMS Enterprise.

There aren't any Federation starships named Enterprise that we never heard of. Not in the Prime timeline and not up and until 2379.

Captain April's "Forgotten Enterprise" (Pre-1701) might exist only in the Kelvin timeline.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

A friend gives you a ride with his car one afternoon. You start calling his car as "your old car"?

Kirk: "I miss my old chair."
Bones: "You mean the one on we had on the bridge last month before we changed everything for no reason?"
Kirk: "No."
Bones: "The one on the Klingon ship?"
Kirk: "No."
Bones: "The one on the Enterprise right before we blew it up?"
Kirk: "No."
Bones: "The one on the Enterprise right up until Janice Lester tried to swap bodies with you?"
Kirk: "Ew... don't remind me. But no. I mean the one I sat in that time Gary Mitchel got space herpes."
Bones: "Ohhhhhh. Yeah. That was a good chair."

And initially you claimed he served there for "a day and a half". Now suddenly it's down to "half a day". Next it will be only for a couple of hours.

Well, it was only until Tuesday...

The NX-01 wasn't first introduced in "These Are The Voyages".

And yet it is still called "The First Enterprise" even after Sisko uses this exact same phrase to the DTI agents. Doesn't seem very careful or clever to me.

There aren't any Federation starships named Enterprise that we never heard of.

Sure there are. We just never heard of them.

We still haven't seen any explanation for the Ringship Enterprise from the TMP memorial wall, after all.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

Kirk: "I miss my old chair."
Bones: "You mean the one on we had on the bridge last month before we changed everything for no reason?"
Kirk: "No."
Bones: "The one on the Klingon ship?"
Kirk: "No."
Bones: "The one on the Enterprise right before we blew it up?"
Kirk: "No."
Bones: "The one on the Enterprise right up until Janice Lester tried to swap bodies with you?"
Kirk: "Ew... don't remind me. But no. I mean the one I sat in that time Gary Mitchel got space herpes."
Bones: "Ohhhhhh. Yeah. That was a good chair."

That's nice. A made up transcript for your made up canon. And McCoy wasn't in "Where No Man Has Gone Before".

And yet it is still called "The First Enterprise" even after Sisko uses this exact same phrase to the DTI agents. Doesn't seem very careful or clever to me.

The NX-01 was the first starship named Enterprise of Earth's Starfleet. The 1701 was the first starship named Enterprise of the United Federation of Planets' Starfleet. No conflict whatsoever.

Sure there are. We just never heard of them.

And until we hear of them or see them, there aren't. Just as there aren't any hidden letters between A-B-C-D-E.

We still haven't seen any explanation for the Ringship Enterprise from the TMP memorial wall, after all.

No explanation needed. As long as it's not an Earth Starfleet or a UFP Starfleet starship there isn't any "canon violation". Just as don't need any "explanation" for USN's Enterprise carriers or NASA's Enterprise shuttle.

 

[captainkirk]

We still haven't seen any explanation for the Ringship Enterprise from the TMP memorial wall, after all.

The line-up on Marcus' desk puts it before the Phoenix meaning it's from the 21st century and not actually warp capable. It was no bearing on this as it's pre-pre-pre-Federation.

 

[Christopher]

The line-up on Marcus' desk puts it before the Phoenix meaning it's from the 21st century and not actually warp capable.

So? A desk lineup is somehow incapable of being chronologically inaccurate? Maybe the cleaning lady put them back in the wrong order. Maybe Marcus put them in that order because it looked cooler and he didn't really care about chronology. I mean, come on, it's a desk display, not a history dissertation.

 

[captainkirk]

So? A desk lineup is somehow incapable of being chronologically inaccurate? Maybe the cleaning lady put them back in the wrong order. Maybe Marcus put them in that order because it looked cooler and he didn't really care about chronology. I mean, come on, it's a desk display, not a history dissertation.

But he is the head of Starfleet and all the rest was correct. Okay he was dumb enough to put a model of his secret warship in full view of everyone, but I see no reason to doubt the chronology.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Archer's Enterprise was not part of the Federation but it was an Earth ship, it was never called the USS Enterprise, etc.

Kinda wish they'd called it something, at least. Seems a bit weird to have a ship name with no prefix. Was UES Enterprise not good enough?

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

Kinda wish they'd called it something, at least. Seems a bit weird to have a ship name with no prefix. Was UES Enterprise not good enough?

Agreed. Originally it was called S.S. Enterprise. Don't remember why they dropped it though.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Probably because "S.S." implies a civilian designation.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

^ Could be. UES Enterprise sounded better, alas…

 

[Christopher]

But he is the head of Starfleet and all the rest was correct. Okay he was dumb enough to put a model of his secret warship in full view of everyone, but I see no reason to doubt the chronology.

Any single piece of evidence in isolation should always be doubted. That's basic critical thinking: Don't treat anything as fact without independent corroboration.

And what does being head of Starfleet have to do with it anyway? As recent events in the United States and the UK have reminded us, leadership does not guarantee special intelligence, infallible insight, or even basic competence. Power often ends up in the hands of fools. If anything, the litany of Starfleet admirals and Federation officials in Trek history should demonstrate that quite well.

Heck, maybe Marcus doesn't even know the history of those ships in the models. Maybe he just ordered some subordinate to set up a bunch of ship models in his office because he thought it was the sort of thing the head of Starfleet should have on display.

 

[captainkirk]

Any single piece of evidence in isolation should always be doubted. That's basic critical thinking: Don't treat anything as fact without independent corroboration.

And what does being head of Starfleet have to do with it anyway? As recent events in the United States and the UK have reminded us, leadership does not guarantee special intelligence, infallible insight, or even basic competence. Power often ends up in the hands of fools. If anything, the litany of Starfleet admirals and Federation officials in Trek history should demonstrate that quite well.

Heck, maybe Marcus doesn't even know the history of those ships in the models. Maybe he just ordered some subordinate to set up a bunch of ship models in his office because he thought it was the sort of thing the head of Starfleet should have on display.

But is there any reason to assume that? TMP showed it predated the original Enterprise. First Flight showed it predated the NX-Alpha. It's entirely possible for it to predate the Phoenix. It could even have been the first manned ship to Saturn mentioned in Tomorrow is Yesterday as the Saturn mission patch was shown in the 602 club along with the ringship. A picture of a DY-100 class ship was also shown which would seem to imply these were all ships of a similar era.