My theory on why Kes wasn't a more beloved character. Also opinion on Lien. post-"Voyager."

[Sophie74656]

When the Doctor was losing his 'memory' she was telling him what to do. Or am Iosing my memory, lol.

I still don't see that Kes should be compared to the rates of development and learning in human terms, when she wasn't a human. Ocampas learn differently, pack more in to their 'years'.

I'm not talking about her development. I'm talking only about how much medical knowledge she acquired vs a human doing the same thing

 

[Jayson1]

I think Kes also had the ability to learn fast because she basically a nurse by the 3 or 4 episode I beleive of season 1 despite the fact she had no history in the field or any kind of training.
I do think the writers should have made her a doctor by season 3 to keep in line with how I imagine the Ocampa must take on roles in their own society due to how they age.

Jason

 

[Prax]

Tom was a sub class genus

 

[Tracy Trek]

Wasn't she a doctor in Before & After?

In that alternate reality she was one of the ship's doctor's. That is a direct quote from AU Chakotay.

We saw her do some studying and then assist the doctor. She never did much more than hand him hyposprays.

When the Doctor was losing his 'memory' she was telling him what to do. Or am Iosing my memory, lol.

When Tom and B'Elanna were attacked by the Swarm and Tom's condition got worse. She had to tell the Dr. how to finish the surgery to repair his injuries. That is a good deal more than just handing him hypo-sprays. In fact she had to finish the surgery herself.

 

[unimatrix7]

You just have to make this personal, don't you?

OK then, I expressed my personal number one reason why I don't like long outdrawn death dramas and tear-wrenching episodes. Since this is a debate forum, I do think that I have the right to do so.

I have also presented another solution in the Kes case since, according to your beloved "canonical version" it was possible to prolong her lifespan.

I have also stated why I find the nine year lifespan silly, unnecessary and unrealistic. Since this is a debate forum, I do think that I have the right to do so.

Given how haggard she looked in Fury, it was clear that her lifespan was in no danger of being extended. By that stage she was pushing 8.

And no, it wasn't "Suspiria in disguise." It was Kes. Sorry if that upsets you.

It also strikes me that most of the people who would have liked to see Kes getting old and die in some episode and who vehemently defends the short lifespan are the same people who several times express their dislike and loathing of the character.

I like Kes quite a lot. I like her less after a Kes discussion thread on TrekBBS.

As for Berman's, Braga's, Taylo's and Fuller's "canon", you can't possibly imagine that I would accept the events in that s**t episode in season 6, do you?

Accept them, don't accept them. I don't give a flying toot. They happened. They're canon. You're entitled to believe otherwise, but you are wrong.

As for "Before And After", I've watched that episode several times and I have actually discovered that the events in that episode takes place in an alternate reality which had no effect on later episodes of the series.

I have watched the episode several times too. That the episode had no effect on later episodes is irrelevant to the fact that it takes place in the prime timeline and was strong evidence that the character accepted that she'd only live 9 years and did not want extreme measures taken to extend it. You have no evidence to contradict this, and your Kes manifesto scribbled on the wall of your bedroom doesn't count.

As for my "awful fanfiction, I take that comment as a compliment!
I write for the fans of Kes, not for those who hate the character.

As a fan of Kes myself, I'd rather watch Fury than read that rubbish. Don't take offense - I think all fanfiction is unbearably awful. In fact, most published Trek novels are awful too.

Actually, I liked Fury. I liked the theme - as Janeway said, 'a friend got lost, we helped her find her way.' I liked that Lien had input into the story, and that they obviously spared no expense with the CGI in that episode. It was surely one of the most slickly-produced episodes of the entire series, I think.

 

[Sophie74656]

Given how haggard she looked in Fury, it was clear that her lifespan was in no danger of being extended. By that stage she was pushing 8.

And no, it wasn't "Suspiria in disguise." It was Kes. Sorry if that upsets you.



I like Kes quite a lot. I like her less after a Kes discussion thread on TrekBBS.



Accept them, don't accept them. I don't give a flying toot. They happened. They're canon. You're entitled to believe otherwise, but you are wrong.



I have watched the episode several times too. That the episode had no effect on later episodes is irrelevant to the fact that it takes place in the prime timeline and was strong evidence that the character accepted that she'd only live 9 years and did not want extreme measures taken to extend it. You have no evidence to contradict this, and your Kes manifesto scribbled on the wall of your bedroom doesn't count.



As a fan of Kes myself, I'd rather watch Fury than read that rubbish. Don't take offense - I think all fanfiction is unbearably awful. In fact, most published Trek novels are awful too.

Actually, I liked Fury. I liked the theme - as Janeway said, 'a friend got lost, we helped her find her way.' I liked that Lien had input into the story, and that they obviously spared no expense with the CGI in that episode. It was surely one of the most slickly-produced episodes of the entire series, I think.

I agree with that. I love the scene where she is walking down the corridor and shit was blowing up behind her

 

[unimatrix7]

I agree with that. I love the scene where she is walking down the corridor and shit was blowing up behind her

Yes! That still looks brilliant today :-)

My kingdom for a Voyager (and DS9) HD remaster

 

[Refuge]

I think Kes would've lived longer than 9. Other Ocampa from the homeworld did.

 

[Sophie74656]

I think Kes would've lived longer than 9. Other Ocampa from the homeworld did.

The ones that lived longer were the ones that left with Susperia. So either he lied about that, using their powers extends their life (it seems like they could be sucking the life energy out of other things to prolong their own lives) or the Caretaker was doing something to keep them shorter lived and once they got away from him they returned to their normal lifespan

 

[Prax]

Kes might not be able to live longer but her descendants could. Well...unless the EMH invents the Cellular Regeneration and Entertainment Chamber© but I don't think the Doc is up to the task...

 

[Lynx]

Given how haggard she looked in Fury, it was clear that her lifespan was in no danger of being extended. By that stage she was pushing 8.

And no, it wasn't "Suspiria in disguise." It was Kes. Sorry if that upsets you.



I like Kes quite a lot. I like her less after a Kes discussion thread on TrekBBS.



Accept them, don't accept them. I don't give a flying toot. They happened. They're canon. You're entitled to believe otherwise, but you are wrong.



I have watched the episode several times too. That the episode had no effect on later episodes is irrelevant to the fact that it takes place in the prime timeline and was strong evidence that the character accepted that she'd only live 9 years and did not want extreme measures taken to extend it. You have no evidence to contradict this, and your Kes manifesto scribbled on the wall of your bedroom doesn't count.



As a fan of Kes myself, I'd rather watch Fury than read that rubbish. Don't take offense - I think all fanfiction is unbearably awful. In fact, most published Trek novels are awful too.

Actually, I liked Fury. I liked the theme - as Janeway said, 'a friend got lost, we helped her find her way.' I liked that Lien had input into the story, and that they obviously spared no expense with the CGI in that episode. It was surely one of the most slickly-produced episodes of the entire series, I think.

You, a fan of Kes?
No way!

Well, I might be stubborn and perhaps rude sometimes but I'm at least honest.

Or I can quote Sgt.Hartman from "Full Metal Jacket". "I'm tough but I'm fair!"

As a matter of fact you do seem to love the s**t episode in season 6 which was made only to humiliate and destroy a Star Trek Voyager character. A strange way to like a character.

As for my "Suspiria in disguise" theory, it's actually more near the truth than Kes of all crew members would turn into a monster. Not to mention that the "String Theory" books which are written by more skilled authors than Berman's Clown College presents a similar solution.

As for Berman, Braga, Taylor, Fuller and their "canon", well I don't care about them and their "canon". What you happen to think in that matter is totally irrelevant for me.

As for the events in "Before And After", they happened in an alternate timeline and not in the prime timeline so what happened there is also totally irrelevant.

As for the books, all of the season 1-3 books are very good. Most of the stories are better than all the TV episodes. As for fanfiction, I prefer to read that instead of watching crap episodes like the s**t episode in season 6, "The Gift", and "Endgame".

 

[Lynx]

The ones that lived longer were the ones that left with Susperia. So either he lied about that, using their powers extends their life (it seems like they could be sucking the life energy out of other things to prolong their own lives) or the Caretaker was doing something to keep them shorter lived and once they got away from him they returned to their normal lifespan

Well, without being rude or so, I must state that there are no evidence at all, neither in the episodes nor the Voyager books for your "sucking life energy out of other things" theory which you have been promoting for some years now.

Where did you get that from, by the way?

 

[Sophie74656]

Well, without being rude or so, I must state that there are no evidence at all, neither in the episodes nor the Voyager books for your "sucking life energy out of other things" theory which you have been promoting for some years now.

Where did you get that from, by the way?

I have explained it to you before but since it doesn't fit your ideal version of Kes (that doesn't actually exist in canon) you don't seem to actually read the words

 

[Sophie74656]

You, a fan of Kes?
No way!

Well, I might be stubborn and perhaps rude sometimes but I'm at least honest.

Or I can quote Sgt.Hartman from "Full Metal Jacket". "I'm tough but I'm fair!"

As a matter of fact you do seem to love the s**t episode in season 6 which was made only to humiliate and destroy a Star Trek Voyager character. A strange way to like a character.

As for my "Suspiria in disguise" theory, it's actually more near the truth than Kes of all crew members would turn into a monster. Not to mention that the "String Theory" books which are written by more skilled authors than Berman's Clown College presents a similar solution.

As for Berman, Braga, Taylor, Fuller and their "canon", well **** them (unfortunately there's no smiley available which is showing "the finger", otherwise I would have used that). What you happen to think in that matter is totally irrelevant for me.

As for the events in "Before And After", they happened in an alternate timeline and not in the prime timeline so what happened there is also totally irrelevant.

As for the books, all of the season 1-3 books are very good. Most of the stories are better than all the TV episodes. As for fanfiction, I prefer to read that instead of watching crap episodes like the s**t episode in season 6, "The Gift", and "Endgame".

This was quite rude don't you think. Its funny how you think there is a "wrong" way to like the character because it is different from the way you like the character.

IT'S FICTION. CALM DOWN.

 

[Trekkin]

Or I can quote Sgt.Hartman from "Full Metal Jacket". "I'm tough but I'm fair!"

Hartman was gut-shot by a man he tormented into insanity. His death was treated as a joke, as he remained delusionally and obliviously one-track minded to the last.

He was also supposed to be the human embodiment of the sadistic, bone-headed, and outright insane war-machine of the era.

Being comparable to Hartman is nothing to be proud of. And did you copy+paste that little rant? Because you've made the exact same comparison before.

 

[fireproof78]

This was quite rude don't you think. Its funny how you think there is a "wrong" way to like the character because it is different from the way you like the character.

IT'S FICTION. CALM DOWN.

Can't keep calm-I'm a Star Trek fan

 

[Trekkin]

'They' put concentrated nerd rage in our water.

 

[Sophie74656]

Can't keep calm-I'm a Star Trek fan

 

[Jayson1]

The problem with the idea of Kes being Susperia is that I don't she was she would want to do what she does in the episode nor do I see the Caretaker people having those kind of powers.
I could see Kes in "Fury" being so far from the future that she has completely lost touch with who she was. I think we as the audience only asume she has been a higher life form for 3 years since that was the real time since we last saw the character but in reality she could have been in that kind of state for hundreds of years.
Also when you got time travel involved it opens yourself up to repeated loops. What if Kes had in fact spent many times trying to go back and save her younger self without killing anyone only for history to keep playing out the same way with Kes evolving and not being ready for it. Maybe in the last loop her plan works and when Kes evolves she is ready for it and becoming a higher lifeform becomes a great thing and the older Kes at the end we see is actually a version from herself from a erased timeline that will no longer exist which means we have 2 versions of Kes.
One version is a God like lifeform and the other is the one who we see at the end.

Jason

 

[Sophie74656]

The problem with the idea of Kes being Susperia is that I don't she was she would want to do what she does in the episode nor do I see the Caretaker people having those kind of powers.
I could see Kes in "Fury" being so far from the future that she has completely lost touch with who she was. I think we as the audience only asume she has been a higher life form for 3 years since that was the real time since we last saw the character but in reality she could have been in that kind of state for hundreds of years.
Also when you got time travel involved it opens yourself up to repeated loops. What if Kes had in fact spent many times trying to go back and save her younger self without killing anyone only for history to keep playing out the same way with Kes evolving and not being ready for it. Maybe in the last loop her plan works and when Kes evolves she is ready for it and becoming a higher lifeform becomes a great thing and the older Kes at the end we see is actually a version from herself from a erased timeline that will no longer exist which means we have 2 versions of Kes.
One version is a God like lifeform and the other is the one who we see at the end.

Jason

I agree with you, there is nothing at all to suggest that it was susperia as kes.

And i liken the idea of the time traveling multiple times