Saucers are Overused in Federation Designs

[137th Gebirg]

Yes, that would be the only logical reason to do so that I can think of, at least when it comes to canon. Otherwise, there's no evidence that Klingons gave more than two rat turds in a rain barrel over avian symbolism. I think they would sooner call their ships "Targs" than anything resembling something with wings.

In the end, though, some things are too obvious not to go meta, and I simply chalk it up to sloppy writing and not understanding the cultures that are being featured.

 

[Ithekro]

Or just not adding the features needed into any story for the Klingons about birds. Mind you the Romulans have a lot of bird iconography, but they also never talk about birds really.

 

[Arpy]

Well, the Cardassians show very little difference between the Galor and Keldon classes...

The Keldon we saw in "The Defiant" because they couldn't afford a new model. They used it again in "The Die is Cast" because that's the ship they were stuck with from "The Defiant." We never saw it or anything similar again.

There is also a similarity in style between the Klingons' Vor'Cha and Negh'Var designs, which are natural progressions from the K'T'inga (of which the Kronos One is, of course, a subset), which evolved from the D-7, which evolved from the D-4.

Not the same thing. Each Enterprise has also been a progression of an overall design, but they're not chopped together from pre-existing parts.

...damn near ALL the Vulcan ships shown in Enterprise (pre-Federation) shared the same general design layout with the ring-shaped warp engines and color palette (indicating the same kind of metal used for hull construction).

Again, see above. Also, racial technologies (ring nacelles) make sense. Before aliens share technologies with each other, they should have their own distinct alien approaches to whatever.

Color palettes also make sense, especially if they're from the same era. Kudos to the K't'inga, going from gray in TMP to white in TUC to green on DS9. They should do more of that.

Klingons do not have the same reverence of birds that Romulans do, at all. There's no reason to call Klingon ships these same names, despite any sharing of technology they may have had over the years.

I both agree and don't. It all started with TSFS, but at the same time, I liked that the Klingons weren't your typical meatheads and could respect the swooping attack of a Qo'noS-ian air-beast, unexpectedly darting down from the heavens to claw out Klingon foreheads whatnot.

There's too much racial simplicity in Trek which, as many have noted before, can lend itself to unintended racism. Plus, an overabundance of dumb one-shot aliens, trying to say something that could have been with pre-existing ones, fleshed out further.

But, the Romulans have been space-faring before most local powers, and the Klingons got the Hur'q assist to get them going a while ago too. We can chalk it up to the two sharing/stealing/developing similar techs from long-time relations, if we must.

 

[Arpy]

That's the thing though-an "awesome" design is very subjective and can't be changed on a whim. It's a visual shorthand for the different powers in a visual medium, and the design process needs to respect that fact, or, it will be regarded as change for change sake, and considered out of line with what has come before.

Awesome needs to be attempted to be attained. The other route is stagnation, regression, and cancellation. I'm not arguing for change away form what came before but one in keeping with it. Matt Jeffries designed this, not this.

I'm not arguing against saucers or visual shorthands. It is nice to know more or less what you're looking at. (Not that that stopped any of us from discovering Trek when we knew nothing about it.) But I'd like to see more done with secondary hulls, which themselves, not saucers, are abandoned.

The secondary hull is the body of a ship, and I'd like to see it in more poses, of course, including the head/saucer. I think a lot of interesting designs could be had, accented with saucers, like the original.

I even (kinda) like the Ent-J because the secondary hull is so slight, and that could fit in a future in which the tech is so advanced that even less a stardrive section is needed.

I'm seeing a progression going from closer to the real world ships like that from The Martian, to first-generation warp-ships like the Ringed Enterprise from TMP or the Phoenix from FC, to mono-hulled Earth ships like the Conestoga, to the first multi-hulled Federation ships like the Daedalus, to the refined Constitution, to the advanced Galaxy, the hyper-advanced Ent-J, to the multi-dimensional ball of light Ent-Q lol

 

[fireproof78]

Awesome needs to be attempted to be attained. The other route is stagnation, regression, and cancellation. I'm not arguing for change away form what came before but one in keeping with it. Matt Jeffries designed this, not this.

I'm not arguing against saucers or visual shorthands. It is nice to know more or less what you're looking at. (Not that that stopped any of us from discovering Trek when we knew nothing about it.) But I'd like to see more done with secondary hulls, which themselves, not saucers, are abandoned.

The secondary hull is the body of a ship, and I'd like to see it in more poses, of course, including the head/saucer. I think a lot of interesting designs could be had, accented with saucers, like the original.

I even (kinda) like the Ent-J because the secondary hull is so slight, and that could fit in a future in which the tech is so advanced that even less a stardrive section is needed.

I'm seeing a progression going from closer to the real world ships like that from The Martian, to first-generation warp-ships like the Ringed Enterprise from TMP or the Phoenix from FC, to mono-hulled Earth ships like the Conestoga, to the first multi-hulled Federation ships like the Daedalus, to the refined Constitution, to the advanced Galaxy, the hyper-advanced Ent-J, to the multi-dimensional ball of light Ent-Q lol

Could you give an example of secondary hull use? The secondary hull, even from TOS, was primarily mechanics and the like, so the idea that they have to be used with every ship is odd to me, when, if the engines fit in one shape, why not use it?

 

[Arpy]

Could you give an example of secondary hull use? The secondary hull, even from TOS, was primarily mechanics and the like, so the idea that they have to be used with every ship is odd to me, when, if the engines fit in one shape, why not use it?

What do you mean "use"? As I elaborated here, the stardrive section is the ship. The saucer is living quarters, labs, and the bridge. (Sensors and weapons are on both.) You can have everything from the saucer on an orbital or planet-side campus, but it's the stardrive that gets you around. The saucer is called the primary hull I suspect out of deference to the bridge, living quarters, and the labs (why they're out there), but without the secondary hull, the saucer is a giant lifeboat.

Again, I think the stardrive is nitty gritty of the ship (with room for some living quarters and labs too), then you have this sprawling fanned-out saucer overflowing with additional exploratory goodness up above it all. If there was a desperate war and you needed lots of ships (without thought to troop-transportation) you could build a thousand stardrive sections and add saucers later.

Why do we need the stardrive section at all if you could put all that in the saucer? It comes down to the Enterprise having that multi-hull set-up. That's the iconic look that everyone loved, that resonated. It wasn't the monohull of countless other ships/franchises. So, if that's the ship, the question becomes why does it look like that?

Again, I think the idea was that earlier in the tech history, things were compartmentalized for safety reasons. Radiation/containment issues kept engineering away from crew quarters (Scotty's radiation suit in TMP) and the nacelles away from everybody.

I think you stray too far away from that (and the design's anthropomorphic undertones / that's our guy in space), and you undercut what got you there. There were sleeker ship designs before Jeffries came up with this one, but this one, suggesting function equally balanced with form, adds credence to all this fantastical sci-fi nonsense. A lot of designs, fan and canon, I think suffer from a late-era hyper-stylization, where because Trek's been around for so long, the style's been "turned up to 11" and you get ships like the Scimitar, with hundreds of weapons ports and space-vampires and "scorpion" shuttles, when the Galaxy Class initially had, what, 10 phasers and 2 torpedo bays? The original Constitution less?

 

[Six of Twelve]

I always thought the Voyager main hull looked more like a shoehorn, rather than a saucer, as it wasn't round, but more oval in shape. I also thought the Voyager nacelles were rather undersized, considering its top speed. Also wondered why the nacelles changed position when the ship went into warp.

 

[137th Gebirg]

Actually, I always felt it was derived from the TOS Battlestar Galactica "alligator on skis" look.

 

[Ithekro]

Are you sure its is an over use of saucers, rather than an overuse of cylinders?

 

[Gary7]

I'm late to the discussion, but I would like to add just a little.

A saucer has an excellent structural advantage over a box. Granted, with structural integrity fields and highly advanced composite materials, you can pretty much make any shape hold together. But the saucer lends itself well for a number of considerations, not just structural. Consider access. A central core of a saucer has equidistant access to all space around it. Also, it channels movement around it rather well, better than a box. Lastly, the curved corridors give a better "room" kind of feeling, instead of really long straight corridors.

I think the oval is probably the best shape. Voyager had the advantage of this design, where you've got curved corridors as well as straight ones, for the main crew sections. Plus, the oval lends itself to being more aerodynamic... as Voyager had the amazing capability of landing! Other starships we saw in TNG and DS9 didn't have this.

 

[Arpy]

I always thought the Voyager main hull looked more like a shoehorn, rather than a saucer, as it wasn't round, but more oval in shape. I also thought the Voyager nacelles were rather undersized, considering its top speed.

Their tech was better. My phone has greater computing power than building-sized computers from way back when.

Also wondered why the nacelles changed position when the ship went into warp.

The producers wanted the design to move when it was at WARP! to impress the kiddies. I don't know that I mind it too much as I like the look of the nacelles in flight, but the hinges always looked waaaay too massive to me. Again, future tech...you'd think they'd be some malleable duranium, shiftable on command.

Are you sure its is an over use of saucers, rather than an overuse of cylinders?

In-universe they use warp coils. If anything it's the Vulcans still using ring-ships that's the curiosity. Although I'd be all for different aliens using different propulsion technologies...B5-like jump gates, SW-like hyperspeed, Stargate-like...stargates, etc. Again, they're aliens. You'd think they'd come up with more varied technologies.

...Lastly, the curved corridors give a better "room" kind of feeling, instead of really long straight corridors.

I think that's why they use them on bigger ships, away for longer periods. They're easy to navigate (as opposed irregular shapes) and less dreary than straight corridors in a giant box.

 

[mos6507]

The producers wanted the design to move when it was at WARP! to impress the kiddies.

It's kind of like this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable-sweep_wing

I guess it's kind of a retcon since that was never necessary before, but nacelle shapes vary widely between different ship classes, eras, and species.

 

[Gary7]

The moving nacelles always bugged me. Makes the ship look a little "boat-like" when they fold upward, swapping the streamlined look for something a little "floaty." Not flattering.

 

[Ithekro]

Although I'd be all for different aliens using different propulsion technologies...B5-like jump gates, SW-like hyperspeed, Stargate-like...stargates, etc. Again, they're aliens. You'd think they'd come up with more varied technologies.

I actually did that in the fiction crossover stuff I use to do in high school and college. Everyone basically kept their own FTL drive systems for the most part. A few refitting with other species designs or attachable drive sleds if they needed to get their ships from own place to another in a reasonable amount of time if it wasn't possible with their own tech (talking travel from galaxy to galaxy within months or years rather than centuries). Later they'd set up a gate network between the various galaxies, but these became potential strategic location that needed defending so they attempted to keep them deep within there own territory, or hidden just outside of galaxies in an effort to not be tracked back to them by enemy ships.

The individual species with different kinds of FTL drives had advantages and disadvantages. Some were quicker than others, but had limited range. Other used other dimensions for travel and thus could not be tracked easily, if at all. Some used fixed points that could be used by anyone, while others used points that could only be used by ships with the specific drive systems. Some could travel as FTL speeds in more or less real space, so they could engage in combat at FTL speeds, or intercept at FTL speed easily from a star system. Others could make near instantaneous jumps, but they were sort of blind about what was at the location they would exit. Others were very, very fast, but needed exact navigational maps to chart courses for the speeds they could go, and so on. I don't know how it would actually work out, but I was willing to give it a go with other's IP for my own amusement.

 

[Ithekro]

How about something pointy?

http://lighthousezen.up.n.seesaa.net/lighthousezen/image/NCC_64772USS_Citation.jpg?d=a14
Came out only a day or two ago from:
http://lighthousezen.seesaa.net/

 

[Arpy]

It's too many decks high and the details are a little too busy and anime, but I kind of like it. I don't know (once the afore-mentioned issues were addressed) it'd be a frigate though, given that the Reliant is a frigate. Maybe this would be (keeping it nautical) a kind of clipper or schooner, or something else that's built for speed, but, lacking a saucer, not built to be away for long.

Alternatively, maybe it's an intra-system (maaaybe intra-memberworld) defense ship. It has the nacelles to chase and fight you if you reach its patrol perimeter, but it's not meant to leave home, and is nowhere near as sophisticated as inter-memberworld/exploration ships. A police cruiser?

It also reminds me of the Sovereign Class without its saucer....like you could lock one into it.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

It's too many decks high and the details are a little too busy and anime, but I kind of like it. I don't know (once the afore-mentioned issues were addressed) it'd be a frigate though, given that the Reliant is a frigate. Maybe this would be (keeping it nautical) a kind of clipper or schooner, or something else that's built for speed, but, lacking a saucer, not built to be away for long.

Alternatively, maybe it's an intra-system (maaaybe intra-memberworld) defense ship. It has the nacelles to chase and fight you if you reach its patrol perimeter, but it's not meant to leave home, and is nowhere near as sophisticated as inter-memberworld/exploration ships. A police cruiser?

It also reminds me of the Sovereign Class without its saucer....like you could lock one into it.

Maybe something like a Starfleet successor to the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Cutter?

 

[Shawnster]

Here's what an Enterprise looks like without a saucer

From the unmade Star Trek: Final Frontier animated project

I like this ship. It's exciting.

 

[Arpy]

Yeah, maybe, Shamrock Holmes.

I'm not the biggest fan of "pointy" btw, Ithekro. I don't mind it here because it's a thin pointy, with long sail pylons and nacelles...again, to me it suggests ship of speed (a clipper) or one with a limited mission profile (police). Maybe it's not even Starfleet, but local. Pointy often seems to me to be needlessly, insecurely, aggressive. "That's right, 'good guy,' betray your values and be just like me, striking fear and despair into the hearts of all. Focus less on science and cooperation, like us, so we don't have to be more like you. ....Do you really think I'll be intimidated if my ship is twice as powerful but only half as scary-looking as yours?"

It's not like they didn't have pointy rockets in 1966, but Jeffries drew a saucer. The question for me is what is this Star Trek, with it's saucers and whatnot, not, hey, why doesn't this thing look more like an Imperial Star Destroyer?

 

[Tracy Trek]

I rather liked the spherical ship that Beverly Crusher was commanding in All Good Things.....

It was a hospital/medical ship.