What would be a deal breaker for you in Discovery?

[Mudd]

No, not really.

 

[Awesome Possum]

So it's kind of unfair to dismissively label him as a "fake Russian" when he was actually from that immigrant community.

Kor

He's from Chicago.

 

[Kor]

Being from an immigrant community myself, I can say for certain that growing up with that type of community, neighborhood, and background is definitely not the same as the mainstream Anglo-American experience, no matter what particular geographical locale we may happen to live in.

And it's certainly not up to others to label us as "fake" in connection with our particular direct personal background and defining and formative experiences.

Kor

 

[fireproof78]

No, this is simply not true. Not advocating a political position is NOT the same as advocating for "the status quo", however much of the universe you want the "status quo" to encompass.

You DO NOT have to express opposition to every ill in the world every time you tell a story or else be accused of supporting it. This is the kind of thinking that political radicals use to justify inserting irrelevant political manifestos everywhere, it's very unhealthy and destructive.

Please note the use of "Most stories" in that post. I do not expect political messages in kids films, for examples.

Nor do I expect every episode to be challenging the status quo. I would prefer commentary to flow from the narrative, not shoehorned in because...reasons. However, I think there needs to be an honest recognition that your point of view, political and otherwise, informs story choices. The idea that it is radical to simply challenge the status quo in a story is rather baffling to me. It's a question of why things are, not a statement of how horrible something is.

 

[{ Emilia }]

Being from an immigrant community myself, I can say for certain that growing up with that type of community, neighborhood, and background is definitely not the same as the mainstream Anglo-American experience, no matter what particular geographical locale we may happen to live in.

And it's certainly not up to others to label us as "fake" in connection with our particular direct personal background and defining and formative experiences.

Kor

The point is that his background might make him representative of the Russian-American immigrant community.
It does not make him representative of Russians.

 

[Mudd]

Koenig was a kid who was born in Chicago, living in Los Angeles and playing a Russian national...with a bad accent.

 

[fireproof78]

Koenig was a kid who was born in Chicago, living in Los Angeles and playing a Russian national...with a bad accent.

Didn't he also try different accents, as well as wigs, as part of the casting?

 

[Long Syntax]

It seems everyone is right here then - Koenig had a bad Russian accent, yet he still somewhat represents that immigrant community.

One observation I would make is continually subdividing each other into more granular special interest groups is unhealthy for any community that needs to live together.

 

[Enterprise1701]

Being from an immigrant community myself, I can say for certain that growing up with that type of community, neighborhood, and background is definitely not the same as the mainstream Anglo-American experience, no matter what particular geographical locale we may happen to live in.

And it's certainly not up to others to label us as "fake" in connection with our particular direct personal background and defining and formative experiences.

Kor

Kor has a point. Koenig may not have had Russia Russia experience, but you have to give him some credit. He's at least got the heritage.

 

[{ Emilia }]

What people were saying was that American actors representing American immigrant communities isn't the same as actually representing the citizens of foreign countries in a setting that assumes a united Earth.

 

[Awesome Possum]

What people were saying was that American actors representing American immigrant communities isn't the same as actually representing the citizens of foreign countries in a setting that assumes a united Earth.

It's better than nothing, but not really worthy of praise. Although given the time, it was the best one could hope for.

 

[ichab]

You know for a franchise that preaches how everything will be perfect once we get over our petty bigotries and hatred to finally work together as an united human race a lot of fans seem to actively dislike actually seeing this fulfilled on screen. When they say that humans are treated equally, it means all humans, not just the straight white men. There are plenty of interesting stories that can be told that don't involve how great straight white men are. I know diversity is a scary word with a lot of syllables, It's not going to be a Captain Planet episode. It's going to have aliens and ships zapping at each other.

I just read through what he wrote and at no point did he say that he had a problem with a diverse cast and wanted only straight white men. Do you honestly think he would be on a Star Trek message board if he had a problem with a diverse cast?

He said he would have a problem with political correctness which means more along the lines of Season One TNG preachiness with speech codes. Speech that the actors can never say out of fear of offending someone. That's pure fascism and has no place in a show about an "evolved" earth.

 

[Mudd]

Exactly so.

TOS presented a "United Earth" with a very superficial gloss and no discernible effort to research or represent non-American cultures. Examples are as basic as nomenclature: the non-Western characters weren't even created with full names, and the names they were given were picked off of maps of Asia or Swahili vocabulary; the guys making this stuff up couldn't be bothered to find out even a little bit of the cultures being name-checked. It was sufficient to satisfy the naive American audience that multiculturalism was intended; it wasn't really aimed at anyone else.

 

[Awesome Possum]

I just read through what he wrote and at no point did he say that he had a problem with a diverse cast and wanted only straight white men. Do you honestly think he would be on a Star Trek message board if he had a problem with a diverse cast?

He said he would have a problem with political correctness which means more along the lines of Season One TNG preachiness. Except these shows are about "let's take down that flag because that other race might be offended" or having a set of speech codes that the actors can never say out of fear of offending someone. That's pure fascism and has no place in a show about an "evolved" earth.

Defending the Confederate flag and slurs? You're doing a great job of convincing people you're enlightened and not some bigot angry he can't openly demean people he considers to be less than him.

Do you even watch Star Trek? People like that are extinct, a relic of a shameful past that humanity has evolved past. They don't worry about offending anyone because that's an alien thought to them.

 

[Long Syntax]

Do you honestly think he would be on a Star Trek message board if he had a problem with a diverse cast?

Excellent point. Additionally, what unifies the users of this message board is the love of Star Trek -- that's good enough for me. The love of Star Trek is what will keep me watching ST DSC, so no, there really isn't a deal breaker, I'm all in.

 

[Apparition B5]

TOS as well.

Trek has a nearly unbroken history of North American and English actors standing in for characters from all over the globe, often adopting stagey regional accents - fake Russians, fake Scots, a fake Frenchman from Yorkshire. You know, it's important that lots of people of different backgrounds have felt that they could "see themselves" in various Trek characters, but pretty surely the original inspiration and intent of the show's casting was to hold up a flattering mirror to 1960s white American progressives - there will be room for everybody on our ship in the 23rd century, but you know who will still be holding center stage.

The best is a pasty white British actor playing a Mexican actor playing an Indian.

 

[Awesome Possum]

I've yet to see anyone explain how "political correctness" harms storytelling. They just assert that it does and dodge the question when called on it.

 

[Mudd]

Do you honestly think he would be on a Star Trek message board if he had a problem with a diverse cast?

Having read and posted on this board and other Trek forums for over a quarter of a century (remember CompuServe and GEnie?) I can answer that in the affirmative: sure he would. The Trek community harbors a surprising number of narrow-minded people and always has.

 

[Mudd]

The best is a pasty white British actor playing a Mexican actor playing an Indian.

Hey, it's always safe to have a Brit play the villain. Americans love it!

 

[Long Syntax]

Having read and posted on this board and other Trek forums for over a quarter of a century (remember CompuServe and GEnie?) I can answer that assertively: sure he would. The Trek community harbors a surprising number of narrow-minded people and always has.

I think you're incorrectly attributing that quote. I just thought it was a good point, not that there aren't any bigots -- as there are in any large enough group.