Kelvin Timeline all but confirmed

[Noname Given]

Or, if you are so inclined, you can go the route offered up by Greg Cox's Eugenics Wars books which depicted them as a series of secret wars that the majority of the people of Earth were unaware of the full extent of, or that certain natural and manmade disasters were actually salvos in that war. Certain populations could experience localized "dark ages" as a result of these disasters while bigger countries were able to largely maintain stability.

Well (since we are discussing canon):
1) Star Trek books are not considered canon.

2) Even If you accept what's in the books - sorry, but that doesn't juive with Mr. Spock's comments from the actual "Space Seed" episode. It just doesn't:

SPOCK: Your Earth was on the verge of a dark ages. Whole populations were being bombed out of existence. A group of criminals could have been dealt with far more efficiently than wasting one of their most advanced spaceships.

^^^
See bolded part

and again from my earlier post:

SPOCK: There is that possibility, Captain. His age would be correct. In 1993, a group of these young supermen did seize power simultaneously in over forty nations.

^^^^
see bolded part - sorry but you really want to say that from 1993-1996; all that could be kept secret from the world at large?

No, I'd rather say what happened: Neither Branon Bragga or Joe Menosky cared about TOS or STII:TWoK canon because they felt "Future's End" was a great story; and they wanted to have the crew end up in the real world year the episode was being filmed.

IMO - It's amazing all the mental gymnastics people will go through to claim "Future's End" is consistent with canon; yet, the idea the the U.S.S. Kelvin (and it's Bridge) are NOT in the Prime Timeline, even though technically the Divergence in said Timeline didn't occur until Nero's ship appeared from the singularity in the 2230ies and destroyed the Kelvin and killed Kirk's father.

And yeah, we're all fans here and free to have/interpret canon/fanon, etc; as we like. But IF you accept 'canon' as what appeared on screen (in dialogue and visuals) - my rationalization for the U.S.S Shenzhou Bridge being in the actual 'Prime Timeline' is way simpler, and straightforward then anything VOY fans can come up with to say "Oh no, "Endgame" fits within the 'Prime Timeline' with no problem."

Again, fans are free to interpret Star Trek however they want.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Well (since we are discussing canon):
1) Star Trek books are not considered canon.

2) Even If you accept what's in the books - sorry, but that doesn't juive with Mr. Spock's comments from the actual "Space Seed" episode. It just doesn't:


^^^
See bolded part

and again from my earlier post:


^^^^
see bolded part - sorry but you really want to say that from 1993-1996; all that could be kept secret from the world at large?

Thanks for fansplaining that novels aren't canon. No shit.

No, I really said the first 3/4ths of the post which was entirely rooted in the evidence and events of the episode and your precious canon while also citing real world historical precedent and which you disingenuously ignored to solely focus on the last paragraph of my post where I clearly stated I was citing author Greg Cox's alternative take on how the Eugenics Wars went down to provide you with a different perspective. Not cool.

IMO - It's amazing all the mental gymnastics people will go through to claim "Future's End" is consistent with canon; yet, the idea the the U.S.S. Kelvin (and it's Bridge) are NOT in the Prime Timeline, even though technically the Divergence in said Timeline didn't occur until Nero's ship appeared from the singularity in the 2230ies and destroyed the Kelvin and killed Kirk's father.

And yeah, we're all fans here and free to have/interpret canon/fanon, etc; as we like. But IF you accept 'canon' as what appeared on screen (in dialogue and visuals) - my rationalization for the U.S.S Shenzhou Bridge being in the actual 'Prime Timeline' is way simpler, and straightforward then anything VOY fans can come up with to say "Oh no, "Endgame" fits within the 'Prime Timeline' with no problem."

I don't give two turds about your precious canon or whatever prior argument about alternate and prime universes you were having, and there were absolutely no mental gymnastics involved or necessary to make my argument. I simply responded to address the point that it's perfectly possible for there to be a major metropolitan city in the ocean-buffered Western Hemisphere largely untouched by a global war that killed over thirty million people and reduced some regions to chaotic subsistence technological levels. I know this because the world went through two actual wars like that in the 20th century (WWII being far worse than what was described for the Eugenics Wars in terms of death tolls) while Los Angeles carried on like a normal city for the most part throughout both.

I also pointed out that a) the war could have ended earlier in the same year and it was now peacetime, b) there was a friggin' model of the Botany Bay in Rain Robinson's office, and c) there were some possible signs of trouble in the region like harsher police crackdowns and rogue militia groups acting up. All things which you ignored (because it didn't fit your narrative) to parse out the last bit where I mentioned Greg's take from the Eugenics Wars novels for the sake of inclusiveness.

I'm not trying to disprove your theory about the USS Shenzhou being in the Prime Timeline. I actually agree with you on that, although it's really not that important to me one way or the other. And I sure as hell don't care about anything from VOY: Endgame, which was an enjoyable enough episode but batshit cray.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

That's my point -- "Enterprise" through to "Nemesis" was made up of multiple alternate timelines. We saw Admiral Janeway on Earth in "Nemesis," so clearly that movie was already set in the alternate timeline created in "Endgame." So, if we assume that Nero and Spock came from the same timeline depicted in "Nemesis" (let's call that the "Prime" timeline), then we know for a fact that this isn't the "original" timeline, where the Voyager spent decades in the Delta Quadrant (the Janeway of the original timeline couldn't possibly be on Earth during the events of "Nemesis").

I'm usually so good at keeping track of the time travel episodes, but this one slipped completely under my radar! If we assume all the timeslines really do exist in parallel, then keeping track of which version of the timeline we're still watching and continue to call "Prime" can be pretty tricky. This becomes especially interesting since time-travel episodes are able to retcon episodes and/or events that were broadcast before them (see "Year of Hell Pt 2"), which means the events in "Enterprise" and the interference from the Temporal Cold War could have completely trumped the entire rest of the Prime Timeline -- including TOS -- anyway.

An accidental reboot?

No matter which timeline "Discovery" is set in, there's no way to be certain whether it's in the "original" or "Prime" or some other timeline.

See above: if we're cycling back and forth through the timelines the way we have in the past (again, see "Year of Hell") then we might conclude that Enterprise actually reset the PRIME timeline long before Nero even arrived. In that case, the Prime version of TOS would have been almost exactly like the Kelvinverse films except Nero never would have arrived and Kirk would have grown up always knowing his father (and probably would have joined the academy a few years sooner).

That, IMO, would explain (at least in-universe) the style and technology in Discovery. That timeline branches from Enterprise now, so the events in the Temporal Cold War cause a "Yesterday's Enterprise" style transformation of TOS-era technology that for some reason makes it look less like 1960s technology.

 

[Prax]

Well, Ent does reference TOS, including the aesthetics. When evil Archer steals the Defiant, he dons the 60's uniform, and searches through the database to find out about our Archer(and his crew). And I think all the other shows reference the TOS era and show its' aesthetic.

Can I just say how pleased it makes me to see everyone spelling "canon" correctly? If this seems an odd question, try out some other forum sites.

 

[jaime]

That's my point -- "Enterprise" through to "Nemesis" was made up of multiple alternate timelines. We saw Admiral Janeway on Earth in "Nemesis," so clearly that movie was already set in the alternate timeline created in "Endgame." So, if we assume that Nero and Spock came from the same timeline depicted in "Nemesis" (let's call that the "Prime" timeline), then we know for a fact that this isn't the "original" timeline, where the Voyager spent decades in the Delta Quadrant (the Janeway of the original timeline couldn't possibly be on Earth during the events of "Nemesis").

When Yar went back in time and prevented the Klingon war, when Janeway went back and got the Voyager home a decade sooner, and when Nero went back and blew up the Kelvin and imploded Vulcan, they were all creating new, alternate timelines.

When the Sphere-builders (presumably from the future of the "Prime" timeline) directed the Xindi to attack Earth on "Enterprise" (as part of the Temporal Cold War), then they were actively changing their own past, just like Yar and Janeway and Nero did.

Admiral Janeway either got the Voyager home early or she didn't; Lt. Yar either died in the past with a half-Romulan daughter, or died fighting a tar monster; Nero either blew up Vulcan or he didn't. We have seen all of these alternate timelines in various Trek episodes (plus dozens of others). Which timeline did Nero and Spock come from? Which timeline is "original," and which is "Prime"? Every time someone changes their own past, they create a new "prime" timeline.

No matter which timeline "Discovery" is set in, there's no way to be certain whether it's in the "original" or "Prime" or some other timeline. If you assume that Spock and Nero were from the timeline depicted in "Nemesis," and we call that the "Prime" timeline, then we already know that was an alternate timeline created by Admiral Janeway in "Endgame." So what exactly does "Prime" mean? It's just another in a long string of alternate timelines.

It's one line with odd tiny loop. End game just erased the end of the line then drew it again, with Admiral janeway grey hair edition coming from that. Kelvin is a line joined to the line going alongside it, and the mirror universe is a different line.

 

[cultcross]

How is the Endgame alternate timeline any less significant a change than the Kelvin event? People will exist who didn't before, people will die who didn't before, people will go off and lead whole lives they didn't before causing ripples of change right across the Federation, not to mention the changes in the Delta quadrant from things Voyager didn't do in the altered timeline and what they did do to the Borg. Depending on your interpretation they may have dealt the Borg a crippling blow. Voyager also brought future technology home with her. What older Janeway does is a massive change to the timeline.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I used to try really hard to make sense of Trek's time travels, and have argued ad nauseam on this board that the Kelvin Timeline split from Trek Prime on Stardate 2233.04, the day Jim Kirk was born.

Then I actually tried to map it out. I had this grand plan and too much time on my hands (oh god I miss having too much time on my hands). I was going to create an amazing graphic, not unlike the Temporal Observatory seen in Enterprise, or the Krenim or 29th century time cop graphics in Voyager. But instead of a bunch of random lines, each one was going to be an actual alternate history from an episode, movie, novel or comic and it'd show how they all split off and interacted.

I thought I'd start with Voyager, and that's where it all fell apart. There is no way to make a cohesive timeline of that show, even limiting yourself to the TV episodes. "Year of Hell" alone reboots the timeline every time Annorax fires his Big Gun, and ends with 300 years of repeatedly altered history being undone. The alt-future of "Before and After" depends on the existence of the Krenim Imperium to work, so how does one work when the whole Krenim thing is undone? All of Voyager before that can't be the post-Krenim timeline because of "Before and After". Then there's stuff like "Relativity" and "Shattered", which has a weird future where Ichab and Naomi are adults and Voyager is still lost! "Fury" means Janeway knew all along that Kes would come back as a crazy old lady but how does one depict that when the Voyager of later seasons can't be the same universe as the earlier ones...

So yeah, trying to make sense of Voyager enough to depict it as a series of lines was enough to make me give up on the whole thing. If Simon Pegg thinks the timelines are totally separate, than why not? It explains why we'll likely never see a Newton, Armstrong or Kelvin-class ship in Discovery even though they should all be contemporaries, or why Captain Archer never talked about the USS Franklin.

 

[F. King Daniel]

And talking of changing the look of Trek, who seriously thought Discovery would look like this?

This is First Frontier, a fan film about Captain April's USS Enterprise. It's a pretty accurate remake of "The Cage" look, and looks great! It cost a few thousand dollars(?) to put together.

Discovery has a budget of $10 million per episode!

 

[Prax]

I used to try really hard to make sense of Trek's time travels, and have argued ad nauseam on this board that the Kelvin Timeline split from Trek Prime on Stardate 2233.04, the day Jim Kirk was born.

Then I actually tried to map it out. I had this grand plan and too much time on my hands (oh god I miss having too much time on my hands). I was going to create an amazing graphic, not unlike the Temporal Observatory seen in Enterprise, or the Krenim or 29th century time cop graphics in Voyager. But instead of a bunch of random lines, each one was going to be an actual alternate history from an episode, movie, novel or comic and it'd show how they all split off and interacted.

I thought I'd start with Voyager, and that's where it all fell apart. There is no way to make a cohesive timeline of that show, even limiting yourself to the TV episodes. "Year of Hell" alone reboots the timeline every time Annorax fires his Big Gun, and ends with 300 years of repeatedly altered history being undone. The alt-future of "Before and After" depends on the existence of the Krenim Imperium to work, so how does one work when the whole Krenim thing is undone? All of Voyager before that can't be the post-Krenim timeline because of "Before and After". Then there's stuff like "Relativity" and "Shattered", which has a weird future where Ichab and Naomi are adults and Voyager is still lost! "Fury" means Janeway knew all along that Kes would come back as a crazy old lady but how does one depict that when the Voyager of later seasons can't be the same universe as the earlier ones...

So yeah, trying to make sense of Voyager enough to depict it as a series of lines was enough to make me give up on the whole thing. If Simon Pegg thinks the timelines are totally separate, than why not? It explains why we'll likely never see a Newton, Armstrong or Kelvin-class ship in Discovery even though they should all be contemporaries, or why Captain Archer never talked about the USS Franklin.

I have that stuff on my hands(time) right now. Have your agent call mine, and I'll take a crack at finishing what you started..

Ya see, for some reason I'm locked in this room. all that's in here are four white walls, a smart phone, a pencil, and a mop bucket full of white paint. I think I have the tools for success!

 

[Spot261]

And talking of changing the look of Trek, who seriously thought Discovery would look like this?

This is First Frontier, a fan film about Captain April's USS Enterprise. It's a pretty accurate remake of "The Cage" look, and looks great! It cost a few thousand dollars(?) to put together.

Discovery has a budget of $10 million per episode!

Expected? no

Hoped? yes yes yes!

 

[Greg Cox]

And talking of changing the look of Trek, who seriously thought Discovery would look like this?

This is First Frontier, a fan film about Captain April's USS Enterprise. It's a pretty accurate remake of "The Cage" look, and looks great! It cost a few thousand dollars(?) to put together.

Discovery has a budget of $10 million per episode!

Very cool! And obviously a labor of love.

But DISCOVERY isn't supposed to be a nostalgic recreation of a vintage TV series. The goal is not to win "Most Authentic" at a STAR TREK masquerade contest.

DISCOVERY is a modern STAR TREK series for modern audiences.

 

[fireproof78]

And talking of changing the look of Trek, who seriously thought Discovery would look like this?

This is First Frontier, a fan film about Captain April's USS Enterprise. It's a pretty accurate remake of "The Cage" look, and looks great! It cost a few thousand dollars(?) to put together.

Discovery has a budget of $10 million per episode!

Would it have been cool to see? Certainly, but that's me, and I would have preferred Jeffery Hunter stayed on through the filming of the second pilot.

But, unfortunately, that's not the look that shows what contemporary technology can do. But, there is some things to be learned there.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I have that stuff on my hands(time) right now. Have your agent call mine, and I'll take a crack at finishing what you started..

Ya see, for some reason I'm locked in this room. all that's in here are four white walls, a smart phone, a pencil, and a mop bucket full of white paint. I think I have the tools for success!

Haha, be my guest. I think I outlined all the main issues that killed my project before it really started. If you can draw a branching set of timelines that make sense of Voyager's TV continuity, you're better at this than I was!

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

And talking of changing the look of Trek, who seriously thought Discovery would look like this?

This is First Frontier, a fan film about Captain April's USS Enterprise. It's a pretty accurate remake of "The Cage" look, and looks great! It cost a few thousand dollars(?) to put together.

Discovery has a budget of $10 million per episode!

So with a budget of $10 million per episode, don't think it would have looked a lot better than that fan series?

 

[Amaris]

So with a budget of $10 million per episode, don't think it would have looked a lot better than that fan series?

They could have added more spit and polish, but it still would have looked out of place in the 21st century. The Abrams films re-imagined the look of the 23rd century. They blended classic design with 21st century sensibilities, and the end result was a polished aesthetic. Unfortunately, there were still fans who shouted "Apple store!" every time they saw the bridge, or "brewery!" every time they saw engineering. So why should anyone give any credence to those who demand a faithful reproduction of the 1960s era of design just to appease a small group of fans? I sure as shit don't want a $10 million per episode production to look like a cardboard 1960s set, with slightly glossier cardboard.

 

[Greg Cox]

So with a budget of $10 million per episode, don't think it would have looked a lot better than that fan series?

"Better" does not necessarily equal "most faithful to THE CAGE."

I thought the trailer looked gorgeous and had great production values. It actually looked like a feature film, not just a TV series. Just based on the trailer, it looks like they spent their money well, at least when it came to the visuals and cinematography.

It should be a very good-looking series, which, IMHO, matters more than trying to meticulously recreate the look of a 1960s TV pilot.

(No disrespect to the fan film intended, btw. That's a whole different thing.)

 

[Galileo7]

They could have added more spit and polish, but it still would have looked out of place in the 21st century. The Abrams films re-imagined the look of the 23rd century. They blended classic design with 21st century sensibilities, and the end result was a polished aesthetic. Unfortunately, there were still fans who shouted "Apple store!" every time they saw the bridge, or "brewery!" every time they saw engineering. So why should anyone give any credence to those who demand a faithful reproduction of the 1960s era of design just to appease a small group of fans? I sure as shit don't want a $10 million per episode production to look like a cardboard 1960s set, with slightly glossier cardboard.

I did not like J.J. ST2009 brewery because it looked to present day retro [Budweiser Brewery/Anheuser-Busch], but I did like the STID engineering[Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory's National Ignition Facility ].

I think there are fans that just want this update on TOS era:

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[KennyB]

And talking of changing the look of Trek, who seriously thought Discovery would look like this?

This is First Frontier, a fan film about Captain April's USS Enterprise. It's a pretty accurate remake of "The Cage" look, and looks great! It cost a few thousand dollars(?) to put together.

Discovery has a budget of $10 million per episode!

Has this even been shot yet or is it another Axanar/Pike film? The trailer released in March has disappeared. And no I never thought Discovery would look anything like this. I expect to see some tips of the hat but I like what I saw this week in the Discovery trailer.

 

[KennyB]

I did not like J.J. ST2009 brewery because it looked to present day retro [Budweiser Brewery/Anheuser-Busch], but I did like the STID engineering[Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory's National Ignition Facility ].

I think there are fans that just want this update on TOS era:

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Accept third party cookies

Just would not work.........the only fans that would make happy are the few really hard core guys. It would never have mass appeal.

 

[Unicron]

I suppose in my mind, why does a "modern" Trek series necessarily have to use aesthetics or elements that would seem out of place in comparison to the era of TOS? When Star Wars was first created in the late 1970s, there was no Internet as we know it today and no wireless downloads or other things that are both common and efficient. That's one of the reasons R2-D2 relies on a bulky arm probe to communicate with other computers, apart from it looking reasonably futuristic in that era. Should future SW works decide this is too "old fashioned" because an R2 designed in the modern day likely wouldn't have such a tool, or is it more likely that most fans wouldn't care and would gladly keep it as part of R2's character along with the overall setting in the SW universe? I'm inclined to think it would be the latter.

I'm keeping an open mind on Discovery, and in fact I do like some of the production values in the trailer. It just seems a bit odd for me to imagine those elements leading into the TOS era, when IAMD did a very nice modern reproduction of those and it looked good (to me at least ). YMMV.