Loose lipped Poe

[Tuskin38]

Don't know what he's talking about, but yes, Palp ordered the army through Dooku as we discover in the film.

Master Sifo Dyas ordered the Clone Army because he had visions of something bad happening to the galaxy, but the Jedi Council didn't believe him and took matters into his own hands.

This is covered in the Clone Wars TV series. Dooku was just responsible for having Jango hired to be the template.

 

[Shinzon4u]

Master Sifo Dyas ordered the Clone Army because he had visions of something bad happening to the galaxy, but the Jedi Council didn't believe him and took matters into his own hands.

This is covered in the Clone Wars TV series. Dooku was just responsible for having Jango hired to be the template.

Then that's a retcon. AotC makes it fairly clear (but not so set in stone that a retcon isn't possible) that Sifo-Dyas died before placing the order.

 

[Tuskin38]

Then that's a retcon. AotC makes it fairly clear (but not so set in stone that a retcon isn't possible) that Sifo-Dyas died before placing the order.

The Kamnios say Sifo-Dyas hired them right in the movie. The Jedi Council say he died around the same time the order was placed, they don't say before the order, they said around, that could be before, that could be after. That isn't clear at all.

All Jango says is that he was "hired by a man named Tyrannus" to be the Template.

 

[Shinzon4u]

The Kamnios say Sifo-Dyas hired them right in the movie. The Jedi Council say he died around the same time the order was placed, they don't say before the order, they said around, that could be before, that could be after. That isn't clear at all.

All Jango says is that he was "hired by a man named Tyrannus" to be the Template.

What I personally inferred from AotC was that Dooku had used the name Sifo-Dyas to order the army, because Obi-Wan says-
"I was under the impression he was killed *before* that", and Yoda and Mace seem to concur.

 

[Tuskin38]

This entire thread is off topic now. We have looped back into a similar discussion going on over in Shinzon's other thread.

We're not even talking about TFA. Should just combine the threads.

 

[fireproof78]

But this is the best "argue about your favorite plot whole in Star Wars film" thread we've had since Tuesday

 

[Shinzon4u]

This entire thread is off topic now. We have looped back into a similar discussion going on over in Shinzon's other thread.

We're not even talking about TFA. Should just combine the threads.

I was thinking that two. I feel like there are two threads where I'm saying the exact same stuff.

 

[Ithekro]

That makes no sense. If the Emperor could just brainwash/forcefully suggest things to Luke he would already be doing it. The man has no coherent plan.

Oddly Palpatine has a plan. It almost worked. The rest of the plan takes effect after Luke falls to the Dark Side.

Dark Horse Comics actually highlighted what would happen in their Dark Empire series. Luke falls to the Dark Side after killing Darth Vader in his rage. He then turns on the Emperor, who calmly blasts him with Force Lightning while continuing to heckle him into using his anger and hatred. The more Luke does, the more powerful he gets, but it still isn't enough. He fails to defeat the Emperor and realizes that their now is only one way he can possibly defeat the Master of the Dark Side of the Force....join it and learn. Only then could he be powerful enough to defeat the Emperor from within.

That was Palpatine's plan. Get Luke so far into the grasp of the Dark Side that it seems like the only way to win is to join the Emperor to defeat him from within. Bu without a means to pull Luke back into the Light, Palpatine wins.

 

[Shinzon4u]

Oddly Palpatine has a plan. It almost worked. The rest of the plan takes effect after Luke falls to the Dark Side.

Dark Horse Comics actually highlighted what would happen in their Dark Empire series. Luke falls to the Dark Side after killing Darth Vader in his rage. He then turns on the Emperor, who calmly blasts him with Force Lightning while continuing to heckle him into using his anger and hatred. The more Luke does, the more powerful he gets, but it still isn't enough. He fails to defeat the Emperor and realizes that their now is only one way he can possibly defeat the Master of the Dark Side of the Force....join it and learn. Only then could he be powerful enough to defeat the Emperor from within.

That was Palpatine's plan. Get Luke so far into the grasp of the Dark Side that it seems like the only way to win is to join the Emperor to defeat him from within. Bu without a means to pull Luke back into the Light, Palpatine wins.

But that's a nonsensical plan. Luke joining the dark side and Luke joining the Emperor are two distinct things. If anything, Luke would go kill a bunch of people to power up and then kill Palpatine. Luke has absolutely 0 incentive to join Palp.

 

[Tuskin38]

True, at least Anakin had an incentive.

 

[fireproof78]

But that's a nonsensical plan. Luke joining the dark side and Luke joining the Emperor are two distinct things. If anything, Luke would go kill a bunch of people to power up and then kill Palpatine. Luke has absolutely 0 incentive to join Palp.

So Palpatine can provide no incentive? Luke is cut off from supports, his friends, and then kills his father and that wouldn't impact him?

 

[Ithekro]

But that's a nonsensical plan. Luke joining the dark side and Luke joining the Emperor are two distinct things. If anything, Luke would go kill a bunch of people to power up and then kill Palpatine. Luke has absolutely 0 incentive to join Palp.

Incentive. Try to kill Palpatine, fail, repeat, and continue to fail. This is the unfortunate truth about the Sith Lord. There was no way for Luke to win if he joined the Dark Side. At least not in the short term, as Luke would have underestimated the Emperor. He would then think he would need to defeat Palpatine from the inside. A he couldn't defeat him normally.

As it turned out, it was the Light side clouding Palpatine's vision when it came to Luke and Vader, and it was a selfless act that ended the rule of the Sith.

 

[Shinzon4u]

Incentive. Try to kill Palpatine, fail, repeat, and continue to fail. This is the unfortunate truth about the Sith Lord. There was no way for Luke to win if he joined the Dark Side. At least not in the short term, as Luke would have underestimated the Emperor. He would then think he would need to defeat Palpatine from the inside. A he couldn't defeat him normally.

There is no evidence at all of that chain of events being the case in the film.

 

[Shinzon4u]

So Palpatine can provide no incentive? Luke is cut off from supports, his friends, and then kills his father and that wouldn't impact him?

Ya lost me.

 

[Ithekro]

As soon as Palpatine turns on his lightning, it becomes clear that Luke, Dark Side or not, stood no chance. At which point what options are left for Luke?

 

[Shinzon4u]

As soon as Palpatine turns on his lightning, it becomes clear that Luke, Dark Side or not, stood no chance. At which point what options are left for Luke?

None?
Joining with Palp at no point seems on the table. Luke just isn't at all interested.

 

[Ithekro]

Luke's trying to defeat the Emperor, defeat the Empire. Yes? That was the original goal outside of turning his father back to the light side. Defeating the Emperor is the entire reason the Rebel Alliance agreed to attack the Death Star II with its full might. One desperate attack to not only take out the Death Star, but the Emperor himself.

The problem is, Luke can't defeat the Emperor. Not with the Force, not with a blaster (which he doesn't have) nor with his lightsaber. There is actually nothing he can do to defeat this Sith Lord. He wouldn't join Palpatine once he crosses over to the Dark Side....at first. But tapping into that power is corrupting, the more it is used the more seductive the power is. Quicker, easier. But it wouldn't be enough, because it wouldn't take out Palpatine. Running away wasn't an option really. So what's left? What other choice would Luke have after killing his father and falling to the Dark Side? He is not strong enough to kill Palpatine. He can't save his friends if he runs. What option is left?

Mind you the framing of the story sets it that the Emperor's plan is working (more or less) as intended until Luke denies him and proclaims himself as a Jedi. Its that point when the Alliance starts to win. The Shield Generator gets destroyed and the fighters start to rush the Death Star. The Framing is that the turning point is Luke. He stays in the Light and the Light side' victory starts. However, should Luke fall to the Dark Side in this moment, something else happens and the shield generator does not get destroyed, the fleet battle continues in the Empire's favor. The Emperor cared nothing about what the Ewoks were doing to his troops (he knew about that), nor about the Rebel fleet doing damage to his Starfleet. All that mattered was converting the Last Jedi to the Dark Side. That was his victory to have. The Last Jedi falls, and the Dark Side wins the battle. That is how the story is framed.

 

[Awesome Possum]

ROTJ and the OT requires a bit of thought, not much but it at least requires you to understand what's going on without it being explained in detail. The PT just tells you everything in awful dialogue. It's "Tell, Don't Show".

 

[Shinzon4u]

ROTJ and the OT requires a bit of thought, not much but it at least requires you to understand what's going on without it being explained in detail. The PT just tells you everything in awful dialogue. It's "Tell, Don't Show".

No?
The opening shot of RotS is one of many beautiful instances of "show don't tell". We are reintroduced to Anakin and Obi Wan by seeing them flying in sync, signaling their growth.

 

[Shinzon4u]

The problem is, Luke can't defeat the Emperor. Not with the Force, not with a blaster (which he doesn't have) nor with his lightsaber. There is actually nothing he can do to defeat this Sith Lord. He wouldn't join Palpatine once he crosses over to the Dark Side....at first. But tapping into that power is corrupting, the more it is used the more seductive the power is. Quicker, easier. But it wouldn't be enough, because it wouldn't take out Palpatine. Running away wasn't an option really. So what's left? What other choice would Luke have after killing his father and falling to the Dark Side? He is not strong enough to kill Palpatine. He can't save his friends if he runs. What option is left?

There absolutely nothing to point to this though. Palp doesn't even give Luke any real incentive to kill his father. He just keeps going "get mad haha you're becoming my servant haha".

And the hubris excuse doesn't work because even though Palpatine doesn't care abut others, he knows Luke does "you faith in your friends is yours". He's a poorly written fool if he thinks Luke will just get mad and kill his Father instead of the guy who did all this to him.