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What's in your 'head canon?'

It was brought up that the First Order uses Kyber enhanced weapons, but it would make sense that the Empire would do the same given just how much kyber they were taking. Far more than what should be needed for the two Death Stars. But you fit every Star Destroyers and TIE fighter with the things to get green lasers, that would make sense. The Republic used mostly blue lasers, while the Separatists and Rebels use red lasers. (Naboo, who used expensive stuff, also has green lasers on their fighters.)
 
I wonder if Lucas (or whoever decided) made the Naboo (good guys) lasers green and the Trade Federation (bad guys) lasers red did it just to make it reverse from the 'norm' seen in the OT.
 
Obi-wan Kenobi has been out of the loop for almost 20 years by the time he makes that statement. Clone Troopers were very good at what they did. Stormtroopers? Not so much.
If Kenobi had meant "clone troopers" he probably would have SAID that, yes?

They grab just about any human teenager who's spurned on by Imperial propaganda and then train them. The problem with the training is that they are trained to be a cog in the machine. No soldier matters in the Empire. You will use any one in your unit for your own gain and anyone can be left behind. You are a number. Nothing more. Same with TIE pilots.
If the soldiers don't matter, then what the soldiers DO is equally unimportant. We should be seeing widespread problems with discipline, focus and loyalty, troopers who will let just about anything slide for a bribe, troopers looting and stealing or shaking down locals for protection money.

Yet all through SW canon it's implied that the ranks of imperial storm troopers are very hard to infiltrate and that it's a waste of time questioning their loyalty to the Empire. They are at least as dedicated -- if not quite as competent -- as the clone troopers of the previous era. That implies they are both extremely well trained and also carefully screened. And even without the implication, much of what we've seen in their training process (e.g. the academy episodes in Rebels) echoes this: Imperial training is derived from the clone trooper training programs of the old republic, slightly simplified but aiming towards a similar standard of effectiveness. This means they aren't taking just anyone, and it also means they don't and can't consider their soldiers to be expendable; the kind of time and attention it would take to turn a disaffected kid into a fanatical suicide trooper necessitates a fairly small number of such troopers being deployed.

The Empire, for the most part, doesn't have a credible military power to fight.
Exactly. So they woudn't NEED a huge army of canonfodders intending to drown their enemies in bodies; the only enemies they ever fight are small local rebellions and crime lords. They'd have spent most of the pre-rebellion years in low-intensity conflicts: small, elite teams tasked with taking down insurgents, crime bosses and pirates. A single star destroyer would be enough to pacify an entire solar system, a pair of TIE fighters could lock down an entire spaceport, and a single storm trooper with a blaster could basically control an entire room and/or kill anyone in it if he had to.

OTOH, SW canon tells is emphatically that the death of Vader and Palpatine left the Empire scattered and squabbling among different factions of imperial loyalists. But there aren't a lot of loyalists in an army of cannonfodders, purely because absolute loyalty to the Empire takes a lot of time and energy to instill. Post ROTJ, you would see mass defections and desertions in over half the starfleet, and the Empire would basically cease to exist as a credible military force. This DOES NOT HAPPEN in canon, which suggests that Imperial soldiers are, for the most part, both highly disciplined and fiercely loyal to the Empire, which is how they're trained and depicted on screen and in novels.

Which means the Empire is going for quality of personnel, not quantity. This is definitely true of the Death Star, and is likely true of the TIE fighters as well.

The Imperial Navy can be run by the populations of loyal human worlds easily enough. To fill out all the Imperial-class Star Destroyers would take around 1.2 billion people.
Indeed. Now imagine if two thirds of those 1.2 billion people were utterly disposable, and everyone knew it. If you're not deliberately screening out soldiers with rebellious or subversive traits, trooper rebellions would be relatively common, and the imperial fleet would be its own worst enemy. The Empire's creed is "rule through fear," but there are only so many inquisitors, and there's only one Darth Vader, and fifty guys with light sabers aren't all that useful when twenty thousand soldiers all mutiny at once.

Given how the Grand Army of the Republic worked...
... as an army of CLONES, with loyalty and military discipline literally programmed into them at the genetic level. That is the ONLY way an army that size could actually work, and even among the clones there were desertions, defections, mutinies and betrayals. Discipline and loyalty among the Storm Troopers would be a thousand times worse.

When a galaxy spanning Empire (well effectively if spans more like half the galaxy with the other half being either Unknown Space or neutral systems) has several dozen human populated worlds with populations of around a trillion each
I think you mean a billion. A trillion people on a single populated world would make Coruscant look like a Milwaukee suburb.

The Empire's equipment though....is designed to inspire fear. AT-AT walkers are huge and terrifying. They are nearly impervious to weapons, by can be tripped up.
Which is another incongruity: the AT-AT walkers and even AT-STs are deployed in relatively small numbers. Assuming each one carries about 200 troops, then this means the Empire attacked the rebel base on Hoth with a force of about 600 to 1000 troopers plus a certain disgruntled former Jedi...

This, from a ship like the Executor, which is large enough to house something like 100,000 troops.

So why bother landing only 1000 totally disposable troops in a pack of armored vehicles that are otherwise impervious to weapons fire when you could just land 20,000 troops and have them bum rush the rebel lines in a sea of bodies and blaster fire? This, again, is my point: the background material heavily implies the Empire's main advantage is numerical superiority (quantity over quantity) but they never actually USE this advantage. And there, again, is the problem of the TIE fighters: you can't really tell me they're disposable and produced in massive numbers when, in A New Hope, the Empire only launches about 15 of them to defend the entire death star. If they really had those kinds of numbers, they'd be able to swarm the rebel squadrons with ten-to-one superiority in the mother of all curb-stomp battles. Instead, they leave the defense up to what appears to be a single squadron of TIEs, and then when THOSE ships get wasted, it's down to Darth Vader and two wingmen.

They are in no way as good or as well trained as the Clone Troopers.
They actually appear to be about equal by literally every measure we've seen. Which is the source of this particular headcanon: if their performance is similar to that of the clone troopers -- who are genetically engineered and trained from birth to be soldiers -- then their training and indoctrination would have to be a lot more thorough than the clone troopers ever had. Hence their reputation: they're known to be loyal and effective, NOT corrupt and unpredictable.

Also TIE Fighters, in canon, have no shields, until the TIE Defender, which surprises the Rebels. I can buy them having heavy weapons to punch through Rebel Starfighter shielding, and allow TIEs to damage capital ships. It might even be why their weapons are green while the Rebel's are red. The Rebels are making due, with the Empire is using kyber enhanced weaponry.
Because fitting a disposable fighter craft with a completely disposable pilot with a weapon that uses one of the rarest and most valuable substances in the galaxy makes total sense, but fitting it with a shield generator -- which every fighter in history up until this point actually had -- doesn't.

Riiiiiiiight....
 
Obi-wan Kenobi has been out of the loop for almost 20 years by the time he makes that statement. Clone Troopers were very good at what they did. Stormtroopers? Not so much.
Here's the thing: Kenobi never said Stormtroopers were especially precise. Just that they were more precise than a bunch of lunatic savages. As in they actually knew where to target a sandcrawler to force it to stop. A Sand Person probably doesn't know what an engine or a power generator is aside from "noisy magic rock urrkk urrk urrrrrk! Hit it with a stick urk uurrk uuuurrrrkkkk!"

You also have Kenobi's line about blasters being inherently clumsy and imprecise and must consider that hitting a person sized moving target with a stockless rifle is a whole different proposition than hitting something the size of a four story building, with what must have been something a bit more potent than their E-11s.
Another factor of course is the "I can't see a thing in this" helmets that apparently have no peripheral vision and yes, the fact that most Stormtroopers are not professional soldiers but conscripted paramilitary police officers.

I often suspect that part of the reason for the inconsistent aim is because the E-11 have some kind of crappy auto-targeting function that way too many of the troops depend on. On it's own one rifle wouldn't be massively more effective with this, but grouped together, the sheer volume of blasterfire focusing on one target should overwhelm. Which is perfectly in keeping with the Empire's doctrine of force as a blunt instrument.
 
Another factor of course is the "I can't see a thing in this" helmets that apparently have no peripheral vision and yes, the fact that most Stormtroopers are not professional soldiers but conscripted paramilitary police officers.

That lead to a funny scene in Rebels with Rex complaining about it as well.
 
This may just be me, but I rather think this persistent misconception stems from a larger, more fundamental one about Star Wars as a whole. It's not military sci-fi, it's space fantasy.

Stormtroopers were never meant to be these hyper-capable solders of death (though that was basically the original notion for the Mandalorians) they're the inept palace guards you get in every medieval fantasy adventure story ever. They're the thugs working for the Sheriff of Nottingham. The cultist guards of Thulsa Doom's temple of power. They're the foot-soldiers of evil. Being not terribly bright or imaginative is sort of the whole point.
 
Plus the fact they need to miss the good guys or we wouldn't have a movie.

That Stormtrooper on Endor who fried R2's socket was a good shot. Plus the ones who gunned down the Rebels on the Tantive IV.
 
501st is still considered the best of the regular troopers.

The trouble with Endor is that I think the "legion of his best troops" were on the other side of the base.
 
501st is still considered the best of the regular troopers.

The trouble with Endor is that I think the "legion of his best troops" were on the other side of the base.

Well, that also depends on whether you believe whatever comes out of the Emperor's mouth. Kind of like: "It appears...in your anger...you killed her."
 
One factor that I think is often overlooked is that the real weakness of Imperial forces isn't necessarily it's poorly trained foot soldiers but it's weak leadership.
Just look at how suddenly effective and competent Imperial forces become when someone like Thrawn is in command. Then compare to those exact same forces under someone like Konstantine is put in charge.

We'll get to see some of these "best troops" in Battlefront 2 and Inferno Squadron.

That unit is special forces, not even close to being representative of rank and file troops. Plus they're only *one* squad.

To put it in perspective: to defeat a rebel strike team of what couldn't be much more than a dozen strong (the most a Lambda can hold is about 20 IIRC), armed with nothing but some obsolete blaster rifles and a bag of explosives, the Emperor deployed "an entire legion of [his] best troops."
The exact number varies, but by any reckoning a legion is a formation several thousand strong. That a *lot* of boots on the ground. Overkill? Well no, because they lost and all it took was a few hundred local primitives to turn the tide.
 
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Occurred to me from another thread:
TIEs are as important to the Empire as they are because most starfighters up to that time are small craft like the Naboo fighter

I always thought of them as disposable--cheaply made things.

Same with Stormtrooper Armor: it's basically impervious to anything that anyone else will ever use except for very high-powered blasters.

That I agree with. There was an episode of Battlestar Galactica where a cylon could not be hurt by people's airguns (pneumo)
http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/thread/1267293551/last-1267376047/Expand+Thread

I can see airguns and slug throwers being the most common sidearm--with blasters just not being as common as it appears. I can see the Empire being very pro-blaster control.
 
I have retained the Old Republic era (KOTR, SWTOR, etc) since it doesn't really impact the present canon. Otherwise it's just small stuff. For instance, in my head canon Palpatine's disfigurement is actually his true form, and Mace Windu's fight reveals it rather than causes it. That sort of thing.
 
I have retained the Old Republic era (KOTR, SWTOR, etc) since it doesn't really impact the present canon.

Well the new canon bought back Malachor. But they never gave it a number, so I guess it could be a different Malachor that also happens to have a sith temple.
 
Has any of the history established by the canon contradicted stuff in KOTOR or Tales of the Jedi? Or at least in a way that can't be reconciled?
 
I always thought of them as disposable--cheaply made things.
I've tried, but I just can't see it. They're a lot BIGGER than the fighters the Jedi were flying in the Clone Wars (Eta-2 and the Delta-7), both of which were well known for their agility and could easily be adapted for long-range use in a pinch. Plus, the Ventor-class supposedly carried over a hundred Eta-2s and/or Delta-7s (probably not of EACH, but still) in addition to dozens of V-wings, Y-wings, landing craft and walkers. The Imperial-class, which is both larger and bulkier than the Ventator, only carries about 70 TIE fighters and only ever launches a handful of them at a time.

So I'm just not seeing how we went from this:
image.jpg


To this:
star-wars-tie-fighter-with-interior.jpg


But we're supposed to believe that the SECOND one is cheap and disposable?


More than that: we're supposed to believe that these ones:
image_3aaf40b1.jpg

tiefightertb_7.jpg


AREN'T disposable?

I just can't squint at it hard enough to make it fit. There isn't enough of a difference between the "rank and file" TIE fighters and the specialty ones flown by Vader and the Inquisitors for me to believe the designs are that radically different. I could see it if they were designed to be modular with unremarkable parts (hence every version of the TIE fighter has the same eyeball cockpit, same interior and most of the same pylon and wing structure), which would definitely favor cost effectiveness and mass production potential.

But cheap and disposable? Bullshit. Ace pilots have flown tougher fighters that were HALF that size, none of which needed big obnoxious "solar wings" for energy (hell, the A-wings don't even need them and they're equipped with their own hyperdrives!).

I'm just not buying the idea that the Empire is completely bullshitting its own soldiers by giving them these godawful borderline-useless starfighters while a ragtag group of rebels manages to score better and more versatile equipment in literally EVERY CASE. If the Rebels could afford A-wings, then the Empire could too, and that at least suggests that whatever the Empire DOES use is equivalent or better (almost certainly better) than anything the Rebels could scrape together. So I'm thinking that the only real difference between Vader's TIE and the regular version is that Vader's ship has a built in hyperdrive (hence the fat back). Same with the inquisitor's TIE, just with a slower/shorter range version and slightly better shielding.

All in all, that explains why a star destroyer only carries about 70 TIE fighters and never launches them in a swarm. A single TIE fighter is worth a half-dozen Eta-2s: better shielded, better armed, FAR more durable, and with an integrated computer system that makes an astromech unnecessary. That would make the TIE fighter the more advanced design, rather than just an oversized cheap knockoff that somehow is ALSO the first choice of ace pilots like Darth Vader and the inquisitors.


TL;DR: Tie fighters are not flying deathtraps for cannonfodders. They're miniature death stars for Empire's most elite storm troopers.
 
I have retained the Old Republic era (KOTR, SWTOR, etc) since it doesn't really impact the present canon. Otherwise it's just small stuff. For instance, in my head canon Palpatine's disfigurement is actually his true form, and Mace Windu's fight reveals it rather than causes it. That sort of thing.

I never really thought of this until I saw a couple of fan edits that sort of play it that way. That got me to thinking about the 'Red Woman' in Game of Thrones, and how
she is actually an ancient hag when not wearing her necklace.
Palps could be sort of the same thing, using the dark side to unnaturally prolong his life span. Perhaps a variation on a theme he picked up from Darth Plaegous. (sp?)
 
I know this is only somewhat relevant to the topic but part of my headcanon is an alternate interpretation to Kenobi's dialogue in ANH than the one that's generally accepted: -

"For over a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic. Before the dark times... before the Empire."

Specifically, I rather think the "dark times" he refers to aren't as most have assumed the recent rise of the Empire but the period surrounded the fall of the Old Republic (when the Darksaber was stolen) and the oppression of the Sith Empire.
I know it can be taken either way, but I rather think this adds a much deeper sense of history to his statement and also contains within it the implication that the Jedi have survived such times before.

Has any of the history established by the canon contradicted stuff in KOTOR or Tales of the Jedi? Or at least in a way that can't be reconciled?
Not so far as I'm aware, at least not explicitly. But then very little in canon has touched on anything prior to Darth Bane.

Of course even back when the original TotJ comics came out that was sort of the point. They were set so far back in history that they could more or less do whatever they want without any serious worry of causing a conflict with other materials.

I'm still a fan of the idea that even if they re-introduce some of those elements that the original version could still be incorporated as a in-universe account, albeit historically inaccurate. A "legend" if you will. ;)

Side note: I can't remember where I saw it but I think I read that something in canon had pinned down the date of the Jedi's founding at around 10,000 years prior to the main saga, rather than the usual 25,000. Take that with a pinch of salt though.
 
something in canon had pinned down the date of the Jedi's founding at around 10,000 years prior to the main saga, rather than the usual 25,000. Take that with a pinch of salt though.

Yeah, Wookiepeedia lists that too, but they have a [source?] next to it, so whoever put that didn't put a source.

There are events related to the Jedi from 10,000 years ago (like Malachor) though with sources, just not the founding.

The Sith foundation and the 100 Year Darkness were around 10k years BBY.
 
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