Mark Hamill on the Prequel Trilogy

[Reverend]

OK, hint was the wrong word, but I just thought more of it as just showing how quickly he could lose control. And I guess I consider him having dark side as being different from him falling to the Dark Side.

It's not so much about how quickly he can loose his temper so much as it is what he does when that happens. For most people a "murderous fury" isn't quite that literal. And it's not that he just lashed out at the first Tuskens he saw or only cut down those that tried to defend themselves. No, me methodically and premeditatively went through that village and sliced up every living thing.
Think about the mechanics of that for a second. Once they saw that a crazed wizard was cutting a swath through their best warriors, it likely at least a few of the women would have grabbed the children and made a run for the open desert. Anakin would have had to chase them down.

I was thinking of as being the start of his fall because it was when he first started considering using Dark Side powers.

Falling to the dark side by dint of "dark side powers" isn't really how it works. It's more fundamental than that. Cart before the horse etc.

 

[Prax]

Anakin would have had to chase them down.

Maybe he just did the Kylo Rylo level ten force freeze. I mean, that's a neat trick.

 

[fireproof78]

I think at a certain point there was also something to establish some actual cause for Anakin to suspect Padme might be having an affair with Obi-Wan. Don't recall if they actually were (I doubt it) but it was meant to look like they might be from Anakin's perspective. Anyway, it was supposed to inform the "you turned her against me!" line and would have made it seem a little less paranoid.
There's at least a trace of this in the deleted Bail/Mon Mothma scene where Padme says she knows a Jedi she can trust and it isn't Anakin but Obi-Wan, since the former was too close to the Chancellor.

If we want to go way back, an early draft of RotJ had Anakin ignorant of Padme's pregnancy and Kenobi hiding her away with Leia while he too Luke. (Also, in this draft Owen was Ben's brother!)
I can see why this wouldn't work in the movie as it'll leave Padme's eventual death to occur sometime later off-screen or requite Anakin to turn either at the beginning or RotS or at the end of AotC and this having RotS end when the twins are maybe a year or two old. Neither seem conducive to a satisfactory climax of the trilogy.

I think Obi-Wan stealing them away, and Anakin then confronting him could have crafted the climax. I think a merger of the two, and could work better than it is realized for the PT trilogy climax.

YMMV.

 

[LJones41]

I don't see how any of these scenarios would have worked. I'm sorry, but I don't.

(Also, in this draft Owen was Ben's brother!)

Which I thought was a big mistake on Lucas' part when he had allowed that line spoken by Obi-Wan to make the final movie back in 1983. I'm glad that he got rid of it for the Special Edition version.

 

[fireproof78]

I don't see how any of these scenarios would have worked. I'm sorry, but I don't.



Which I thought was a big mistake on Lucas' part when he had allowed that line spoken by Obi-Wan to make the final movie back in 1983. I'm glad that he got rid of it for the Special Edition version.

Well, I don't see the climax of ROTS as all that satisfying, so I guess we'll agree to disagree then.

Also, I genuinely don't remember Obi-Wan stating in the films that Owen was his brother. I thought that was a part of the radio drama.

 

[Kor]

... (Also, in this draft Owen was Ben's brother!)
...

Ah, yes. I'm pretty sure the line was in the ROTJ novelization. The novelization also included the tale of Obi-wan and Anakin dueling on a fiery lava planet, which we saw much later in ROTS.

Which I thought was a big mistake on Lucas' part when he had allowed that line spoken by Obi-Wan to make the final movie back in 1983. I'm glad that he got rid of it for the Special Edition version.

That line was never in the movie.

Also, I genuinely don't remember Obi-Wan stating in the films that Owen was his brother.

He never did. I watched the theatrical version dozens of times on VHS and LaserDisc. The concept only came out of tie-in materials, not the actual movie.


Kor

 

[Timby]

Which I thought was a big mistake on Lucas' part when he had allowed that line spoken by Obi-Wan to make the final movie back in 1983. I'm glad that he got rid of it for the Special Edition version.

This was never, ever, ever in any released print of the movie.

 

[fireproof78]

Ah, yes. I'm pretty sure the line was in the ROTJ novelization. The novelization also included the tale of Obi-wan and Anakin dueling on a fiery lava planet, which we saw much later in ROTS.



That line was never in the movie.



He never did. I watched the theatrical version dozens of times on VHS and LaserDisc. The concept only came out of tie-in materials, not the actual movie.


Kor

This was never, ever, ever in any released print of the movie.

That's what I thought. I was about to put in my VHS.

 

[Nightowl1701]

Pretty sure that line about Owen wasn't filmed. If I remember right, Alec Guinness was nursing a cold or flu and just wanted to get his one day of shooting over with as fast as possible (Lucas could certainly relate at that point), so the script for that scene was reworked on the set and pared down to the bare essentials.

 

[velour]

The main difference between the OT and PT Lucas isn't that he owned them, but that he still had studio oversight and financial restrictions. Financially, Lucas was in a much better position to dictate the PT, than the limitations that he had with the original Star Wars especially. Lucas would often describe them as "unfinished" as he couldn't do all that he wanted to do.

This is why the PT also sees an increase push towards digital filmmaking because Lucas really wanted to advance the technology to present these films. I've heard these films described as "experiments in digital filmmaking" because of the limits Lucas wanted to push past.

There are so many influences on Lucas that changed over the years, but I don't think Lucas saw SW as the masterpiece as audiences thought it was. So, the PT reflects more of the story he really wanted to tell from the get go, rather than how the original films ended up.

I guess we can thank our lucky stars (no pun intended) that Lucas did indeed have those constraints and limitations when he was making SW, and as a result wound up creating what he did.

I can only imagine what SW might have turned out to be if Lucas had the same mindset and powers that he eventually had with the PT. If SW would have been more like the PT, I am not sure SW would have turned out for the better artistically.

I am curious if Lucas has any serious interest in remaking the original SW to completely fulfill his original vision of what it should have been.

I know alot of people liked the prequels, and alot of people didn't, of course, this being the internet, the negative people are going to drown out anyone else. Personally, I don't hate Lucas either, I wish him nothing but the best, and thank him for what he has created for us to enjoy. Like I said earlier, I think he just got too attached to what he had created, and wasn't really willing to bring people on board that could help him flesh out things. Personally, I simply think his biggest misstep in the prequels was that he got caught up in the visual minutiae of his universe and because of this, things like story progression, character development and dialog suffered, things that people could have helped him with and still left the grand scope of his story intact. I actually do think the core story of the prequels is a good one, and the broad strokes story wise are done mostly well.

I, too, got the impression that Lucas focused too much on the visual imagery, the cgi, and the fx. I think he got so enamored with the technology that proper character development and story telling got short shrifted.

 

[LJones41]

If SW would have been more like the PT, I am not sure SW would have turned out for the better artistically.

To me, "The Empire Strikes Back" was basically a dress rehearsal for the Prequel Trilogy. So, the idea that the OT is artistically superior to the PT is a joke.


Personally, I think the Prequel Trilogy scared the shit out of a lot of fans, because it was a lot closer to expressing how ambiguous human nature truly is than the Original Trilogy. The writing for both trilogies were very good, despite some flaws. And yes, I feel that both trilogies had its flaws. But as someone once said in an article about the two trilogies, the OT revealed to moviegoers how humans like to see themselves - borderline ideal, with perhaps a few flaws. The PT revealed to moviegoers what humans are really like - very ambiguous and very flawed.

 

[fireproof78]

In your opinion. I do not see the similarities between the PT's visual style and the OT, nor would I expect it. I think, visually, the PT does very well.

If the PT is to reveal humans/characters who are flawed, then it succeeded. It also failed to make them sympathetic, relatable or identifiable as people basic superficial elements.

In my opinion.

 

[Prax]

I guess we can thank our lucky stars (no pun intended) that Lucas did indeed have those constraints and limitations when he was making SW, and as a result wound up creating what he did.

I can only imagine what SW might have turned out to be if Lucas had the same mindset and powers that he eventually had with the PT. If SW would have been more like the PT, I am not sure SW would have turned out for the better artistically.

I am curious if Lucas has any serious interest in remaking the original SW to completely fulfill his original vision of what it should have been.


I, too, got the impression that Lucas focused too much on the visual imagery, the cgi, and the fx. I think he got so enamored with the technology that proper character development and story telling got short shrifted.

I'm not sure where this Idea comes from, but Lucas had complete creative control over all six movies. The only film with some Studio oversight was the first one, A New Hope, but even then he had unprecedented creative control and full support from Fox Exec Alan Ladd Jr. Everything Lucas wanted in the film, and could afford, is there. Everything he wanted, but couldn't do at the time, is in the most current version(formally known as the special edition).

I, too, got the impression that Lucas focused too much on the visual imagery, the cgi, and the fx. I think he got so enamored with the technology that proper character development and story telling got short shrifted.

I, too, got the impression that Lucas focused too much on the visual imagery, the cgi, and the fx. I think he got so enamored with the technology that proper character development and story telling got short shrifted.

Interestingly, Lucas spent more time writing the story of The Phantom Menace and it's sequels, than he did writing A New Hope and it's sequels.

I really don't see how there is more focus on special effects in the prequels than the originals, which themselves were accused of being "2 hour SFX reels." All six films are very ambitious in developing and implementing new methods of VFX, and promoting those VFX to sell tickets.

 

[fireproof78]

I'm not sure where this Idea comes from, but Lucas had complete creative control over all six movies. The only film with some Studio oversight was the first one, A New Hope, but even then he had unprecedented creative control and full support from Fox Exec Alan Ladd Jr. Everything Lucas wanted in the film, and could afford, is there. Everything he wanted, but couldn't do at the time, is in the most current version(formally known as the special edition).



Interestingly, Lucas spent more time writing the story of The Phantom Menace and it's sequels, than he did writing A New Hope and it's sequels.

I really don't see how there is more focus on special effects in the prequels than the originals, which themselves were accused of being "2 hour SFX reels." All six films are very ambitious in developing and implementing new methods of VFX, and promoting those VFX to sell tickets.

I think it was the larger emphasis on the effects, not that there were more of them. For instance, there were promotions that talked about what scene was entirely digital in TPM, and then what 3 scenes in AOTC and then what scenes Spielberg directed in ROTS. Which, is interesting from a trivia point of view, but is a bit odd, to me, to promote the film, because then you are looking at the effects and not the larger film itself.

 

[Prax]

There exists the same for the OT, like the docupromo for empire strikes back narrated by Mark Hamill which is exclusively about the special effects. It's an hour long.

All big movies in the 90's(and early 2000's) focused a lot of the marketing on new VFX like CG. Think Matrix, or Lord of the Rings. I can remember endless promo and discussions about Gollum, giant orc sieges, neo fighting on the freeway with the New Cadillac CTS®'s, etc.

In the special features of the prequels(which are extensive on both DVD and BR), There is just as much focus if not more on characters and story.

A good indicator of how much focus is on what would be to watch the commentaries. I think it odd to hear about "overuse" or "too much focus" on VFX or CGI in regards to the prequels when every big fantasyscifiaction movie of the last ten years uses such effects to ever greater degree, especially the recent Trek and Star Wars films.

 

[fireproof78]

I think it just stands out more, especially in AOTC and Yoda in TPM.

 

[velour]

To me, "The Empire Strikes Back" was basically a dress rehearsal for the Prequel Trilogy. So, the idea that the OT is artistically superior to the PT is a joke.


Personally, I think the Prequel Trilogy scared the shit out of a lot of fans, because it was a lot closer to expressing how ambiguous human nature truly is than the Original Trilogy. The writing for both trilogies were very good, despite some flaws. And yes, I feel that both trilogies had its flaws. But as someone once said in an article about the two trilogies, the OT revealed to moviegoers how humans like to see themselves - borderline ideal, with perhaps a few flaws. The PT revealed to moviegoers what humans are really like - very ambiguous and very flawed.

One of the things about SW that I found compelling was that it was essentially a story of good versus evil. You knew who the heroes were and the villains that they were up against. It was straightforward. It was easy to understand.

The good guys came across as likable and sympathetic. And Darth Vadar turned out to be one of the most memorable and distinguished movie villains, at least for me. Lucas presented the story very well. Plus, the original SW movie had an epic vibe.

I realize that Lucas may have intended for the PT to show a universe of flawed characters and the ambiguous nature of humans. I have no problem with that. However, as other posters have pointed out, it was Lucas' execution that was seriously flawed. The PT characters, for the most part and especially with Hayden Christiansen, failed to do nuance well, to show the ambiguity in a relatable way. I thought HC's performance was pathetic. There was too much teenage angst in his performance.

And the PT didn't seem epic at all. There seemed to be too much emphasis on the minutiae of the imagery. The story and character development got lost in the muddle.

I'm not sure where this Idea comes from, but Lucas had complete creative control over all six movies. The only film with some Studio oversight was the first one, A New Hope, but even then he had unprecedented creative control and full support from Fox Exec Alan Ladd Jr. Everything Lucas wanted in the film, and could afford, is there. Everything he wanted, but couldn't do at the time, is in the most current version(formally known as the special edition).



Interestingly, Lucas spent more time writing the story of The Phantom Menace and it's sequels, than he did writing A New Hope and it's sequels.

I really don't see how there is more focus on special effects in the prequels than the originals, which themselves were accused of being "2 hour SFX reels." All six films are very ambitious in developing and implementing new methods of VFX, and promoting those VFX to sell tickets.

I did not know that Lucas spent more time writing the PT than the OT. I don't fully know the story of the behind-the-scenes of the making of the PT and OT and how much control Lucas actually exercised. What I do know is the end result. Imo, the PT left a lot to be desired.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

To me, "The Empire Strikes Back" was basically a dress rehearsal for the Prequel Trilogy.

That's not remotely consistent with any accepted meaning of "dress rehearsal."

 

[suarezguy]

One of the things about SW that I found compelling was that it was essentially a story of good versus evil. You knew who the heroes were and the villains that they were up against. It was straightforward. It was easy to understand.

Pretty much but you still had Han in the first film being, except in the end, a mercenary (though a likeable mercenary) and Luke being pretty disgusted at him for that but his position being understandable, in the second Obi-Wan and Yoda were concerned that Luke might fall to the Dark Side and Lando understandably betrayed his friend and then decided to rescue him and ...

And Darth Vadar turned out to be one of the most memorable and distinguished movie villains, at least for me. Lucas presented the story very well.

I think some of the dislike against Jedi, at least subconsciously, was from that Vader ended up regretful and redeeming himself, some fans would prefer that he was always a really evil villain.

 

[velour]

Pretty much but you still had Han in the first film being, except in the end, a mercenary (though a likeable mercenary) and Luke being pretty disgusted at him for that but his position being understandable, in the second Obi-Wan and Yoda were concerned that Luke might fall to the Dark Side and Lando understandably betrayed his friend and then decided to rescue him and ...

If Lucas was trying to show the ambiguity of human nature in the PT, he achieved that, ironically, in the OT with the Han character. Han was both a scoundrel and a hero.

I thought the most intriguing PT character was not Anakin, Obi-wan, Padme or any of the other Jedis. I found Palpatine, a villain, to be the most impressive and intriguing character. Behind the statesman façade, behind the cool calm demeanor was a wily sinister sith. Ian McDiarmid gave a convincing performance unlike HC.

I think some of the dislike against Jedi, at least subconsciously, was from that Vader ended up regretful and redeeming himself, some fans would prefer that he was always a really evil villain.

You may be right.

I didn't dislike the Jedis, though. I didn't find the PT Jedis sympathetic either, and it had nothing to do with Vader's redemption. The PT Jedis came across as arrogant, aloof, and petty.

I thought Vader's late conversion back to the side of good was abrupt and not particularly believable. Not that I was opposed to the redemption plot. I was not convinced that Vader, as he was portrayed throughout the OT, would be capable of that; just like I found Anakin's transformation from the Jake Lloyd boy to DV unconvincing.

As another poster wrote, it was bridge too far to overcome. Maybe if Anakin's journey to the dark side was written better and if the character was played by better actors, Lucas could have successfully achieved his goal (at least to fans like me).