What expectations did you have for Moffat's tenure?

[The Wormhole]

Having not seen the episode, but seeing the picture, I mostly question why she's in a custom suit (completely with so much open skin, including her face) and not a standard Cyberman suit like every other Cyberman. She's not just in "mid transformation" either, since her suit has a female chest plate. At that point, the high heels are really just a small part of the problems with her. I imagine that actually watching the episode just leads to more questions and problems.

IIRC, there is actually a bit of an explanation, but it appears as a write-up on a computer screen, meaning the whole matter was an after-thought by someone involved in post-production.

One thing I try to remind myself when I see a bad Who episode is that, no matter how bad it gets, no episode of Doctor Who will ever be as bad as Torchwood was in general.

Torchwood did some pretty good character stuff in its second season, IMO.

 

[kirk55555]

IIRC, there is actually a bit of an explanation, but it appears as a write-up on a computer screen, meaning the whole matter was an after-thought by someone involved in post-production.

Based on how stupid the "Cyberwoman" looks, and how stupid Torchwood is in my limited experience, I'm not surprised that any explanation is an afterthought.

Torchwood did some pretty good character stuff in its second season, IMO.

Well, my experience with Torchwood is watching the first two episodes of Series 1, hating them, and then the first episode of Series 2 (because people said it got better, hating it, and wondering what John Barrowman (and james Marsters in the series 2 episode) did to deserve such garbage.

Of course, that's just me. Still, I'd rather rewatch almost any bad Doctor Who episode then watch any Torchwood, when it comes down to it.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

I'm one of those rare souls who prefer the first season of Torchwood to the second. The first season has a bleak, nihilistic tone that the second doesn't.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Have you seen the pile of dogshit that is the second season of Broadchurch?

I guess that's down to a matter of opinion. I really enjoyed the second series and as well as the current third series.

I'm one of those rare souls who prefer the first season of Torchwood to the second. The first season has a bleak, nihilistic tone that the second doesn't.

To each their own, but I preferred that series for that bleak, nihilistic tone. It was much better than the juvenile rubbish of the first series.

 

[Starkers]

TW1- childish rubbish that thought it was being adult and edgy
TW2-Childish rubbish that realised it was childish rubbish and consequently became fun to watch.
TW3- A Quatermass for the 21st Century.
TW4- WTF?

As for the original topic. I appreciate this is going to end up (if it hasn’t already) a Moffat slagfest but for what it’s worth here’s my honest and at least somewhat even handed two pence worth.

Rationally I knew we were unlikely to get something like Blink every week, but I think I did expect a more Hinchcliffe’esque Who than we got. The fairy-tale idea didn’t immediately grab me but pretty soon I thought it was wonderful, and in response to a poster earlier on, give me a Moffat Fairy-tale over an RTD soap opera any day of the week. I thought series 5 was great and count me amongst those who thought Series 6 was great. Yes it’s all over the shop but it has a wonderful, completely bonkers energy about it that I just love. 7A was ok, but essentially a bit pointless because Amy and Rory (much as I love em) should have headed off into the sunset in series 6. Series 7b was (aside from a couple of exceptions) terrible. I let Moffat off for that because of the 50th and The Day of the Doctor which was wonderful. Sadly it was downhill after that. Matt’s send off was poor and the notion to redo the idea of an unlikable Doctor (because it worked so well with Six) was a lousy idea (though I can see the logic and you can’t fault that 12 is very different to 10 and 11). Series 8 is poor aside from a few exceptions (Listen, Mummy on the Orient Express and the introduction of Missy) but I thought series 9 was something of a return to form. Not perfect, and still not up there with 5 and 6 but probably the most enjoyable the show had been (specials aside) since 7A. So now we’ll shortly have series 10, and the trailer does look good (but then again that’s what trailers are for) and a final Christmas special where both Moffat and Capaldi will sign off.

I think Moffat’s greatest strengths as a showrunner have also proven his greatest weaknesses. He overcomplicates matters, which keeps things interesting but if you can’t pull a great ending out of the hat that dilutes the impact somehow (see Dean Koontz for further details). I think he’s constantly tried to do something different with the show, but sometimes a desire to keep things fresh just makes it seem inconsistent. In an ideal world maybe he should have bowed out with Matt but he didn’t. Obviously the scuttlebutt used to be that he was refusing to leave. This has now been replaced somewhat by the notion that the BBC refused to let him leave. Who knows where the truth lies, I’m sure we’ll find out one day.

He’s been in the job way too long, doesn’t always finish what he’s started, and thinks he’s cleverer than he is a lot of the time, but, it comes down to one unassailable thing for me. At times RTD made me literally want to throw things at the TV. Moffat never has, and frankly that was probably the main thing I wanted when the showrunner change happened. The latter years will rightly be recorded as something of a mess, but at least the show hasn’t been predictable, and I think sometimes people forget just how utterly predictable the show was by the time RTD left, you could practically set your watch by the appearance of certain kinds of episodes and certain kinds of characters. Of course unpredictability has its downside too. Hand on heart I probably imagined the Moffat era would be better than it has been but, again being honest, give me Moffat/Smith over RTD/Tennant any day of the week (but by the same token I’d take RTD/Tennant over Moffat/Capaldi so go figure).

 

[Mr Awe]

Unfortunately, that someone else is the person who thought this was a great idea:

So, that was an actual episode? I thought that was just my dream!!

 

[Mr Awe]

At times RTD made me literally want to throw things at the TV. Moffat never has, and frankly that was probably the main thing I wanted when the showrunner change happened.

Very nicely written review! For the most part, I agree with it. However, I slightly disagree in that Moffat Who at times made me want to throw things at the TV but for different reasons than RTD Who. Time of the Doctor was absolutely horrible. The whole "heaven" thing that led to zombie Cybermen. The Hybrid. How the Gallifrey arc was "resolved". He'd build up these big arcs only to leave you hanging with a WTF?!

That build up of arcs that ultimately went nowhere, to confusion, or wrapped up in a few sentences of dialog made me want to throw things at the TV!

In the end, I enjoyed both takes on DW. And, both showrunners left slightly too late for my taste. I'd say that Moffat is leaving more too late than RTD did. But, that may not be his fault. And, in case he knocks it out of the park for series 10, I reserve the right to change my mind!

Mr Awe

 

[Steve Roby]

One thing I try to remind myself when I see a bad Who episode is that, no matter how bad it gets, no episode of Doctor Who will ever be as bad as Torchwood was in general.

Might be nice to think so, but boy, do I disagree. I liked Torchwood quite a lot (though I admit I've only seen "Cyberwoman" once), aside from large chunks of the last series. But no series that produced the likes of "Time Flight" and "Kill the Moon" has much of a claim to being better on average than Torchwood.

 

[kirk55555]

Might be nice to think so, but boy, do I disagree. I liked Torchwood quite a lot (though I admit I've only seen "Cyberwoman" once), aside from large chunks of the last series. But no series that produced the likes of "Time Flight" and "Kill the Moon" has much of a claim to being better on average than Torchwood.

Doctor Who has had some terrible episodes, but on average its a great show, and in my opinion far superior to Torchwood. The fact that one is still around and one long gone probably says something about Doctor Who's general quality over Torchwood. But, thats just my opinion. There are one or two episodes of Doctor who so bad I might watch a Torchwood episode instead (like Fear Her or the Zygon Two parter from last Series). But, give me bad Doctor Who over that immature "adult" garbage of Torchwood in 99% of cases.

I say this as someone who considers Jack Harkness as one of the best supporting Doctor Who characters (I'd say "supporting character" fits him better then companion, same with characters like River Song), and who has "Jack showing up" as a top 2-3 wish for things I'd like to see on Doctor Who. I just couldn't stand Torchwood. Based on what I watched, it was like it was written by a sexually frustrated 14 year old boy who wanted to pretend he could write stuff for "adults".

Again, just my opinion. Probably shouldn't clog up a thread thats about reminiscing on Moffat's tenure on Doctor Who by going off on a tangent about a show he had nothing to do with.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

Cyberwoman was, in my opinion, worse than any bad NuWho episode I've ever seen. Even Love and Monsters has decent scenes in it, and doesn't turn really bad until the villain of the piece appears halfway through. But Cyberwoman.... ugh!!

 

[The Wormhole]

But no series that produced the likes of "Time Flight" and "Kill the Moon" has much of a claim to being better on average than Torchwood.

That's not really fair, though. Every show has its terrible episodes, that doesn't prevent the series overall from deserving a spot in a pedestal. That's like saying while TNG season 1 was on the air that none of the episodes are as bad as And the Children Shall Lead or Plato's Stepchildren. Or hell, telling anyone who might not like Discovery "this franchise gave us Code of Honor, Profit and Lace, Precious Cargo. Maybe our expectations shouldn't be so high?" Or while watching Stargate Universe "you know, this is a franchise that gave us the likes of Emancipation, The Light, Entity, the whole run of Stargate Infinity. Quality is never assured." Of course a show gives us terrible episodes, even today's critical darlings. I'm a fan of The Walking Dead, and even I recognize there were some dire episodes in the early years (particularly the second season). Just because we can sit around and point out where a bunch of shows went bad doesn't overrule the fact that overall, those shows were pretty damn good. And if there's a show that has overall disappointed us, than we have a right to criticize it, even if it is a spin-off of a show that hasn't always delivered on all cylinders.

All that being said, despite its flaws, I actually do kind of enjoy Torchwood, though I'll agree the tie-in material actually does a much better job with the concept than the show typically did. Still, I'll gladly label Torchwood the second-best DW spin-off.

 

[Jax]

I've been happy with most of the Moffat era, his story arcs generally played out a more complex storyline and one that played out over a full season in bits rather than just towards the end. Smith is my number 1 Doctor so that helps too though David Tennant is right behind. I enjoyed The Silence Arc, Amy & Rory were the best companions for me and made the Tardis feel like a family rather than just strangers travelling together for a while. We got a resolution to the 13 lives issue, The Time War and the return of Galifrey. The new Doctor may of took a season to settle in but he had a brilliant 2nd year in my opinion.

The show is now in double figures for age since it's return in 2005, its always going to start feeling more stale in parts and harder to please the fanbase, which is fractured between live and catchup viewers as 99% of TV shows are these days. Moffat era didn't have the advantage of being new, it had a fanbase that had grown up from the new fans the show attracted in 2005 but I think overall Moffat did a fine job.

 

[The Wormhole]

We got a resolution to the 13 lives issue, The Time War and the return of Galifrey.

The Time War was resolved under RTD. Moffat didn't resolve that at all. Hell, he pretty much avoided directly mentioning it at all for his first two seasons, with the first direct reference to the Time War in a Moffat produced episode being The Rings of Akhaten. The thirteen lives thing was only addressed accidentally, and only because Eccleston refused to return for Day of the Doctor, so I'm not sure Moffat really deserves credit there, especially since as recently as the episode immediately before the War Doctor's introduction still makes it clear Matt Smith was believed to be the Eleventh as far as everyone was concerned. And restoring Gallifrey and the Time Lords is actually one of Moffat's regrets, and indeed he even apologized for it.

 

[Mr Awe]

^ He needs to apologize for how it was restored!

 

[kirk55555]

I think that restoring Galifrey is one of the best things Moffat has done recently. The "Last Timelord" story with The Doctor was played out, Galifrey coming back added potential for interesting stuff with the Timelords. After 8 series of them being gone, I think it was time for them to return. You could argue he could have done it better, but I'm glad the timelords are now around as a story element that the writers can use.

 

[Mr Awe]

^ I'm glad Gallifrey is back too. The way it was done was crap though.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Yup, same here. Glad Gallifrey is back but the way it came back was complete rubbish.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

We got a resolution to... The Time War....

I'm not a fan of Moffat's use of the Time War mythology because, in Moffat's hands, he made it into some very mundane. RTD's Time War was something that affected all of time and space. Moffat's Time War was a Dalek fleet shooting at Gallifrey and Gallifrey shooting back at the Daleks. RTD's Time War was told in hints of something epic and grandiose and horrible and desperate. Moffat's Time War was something very small. RTD's Time War was resolved by destroying the Daleks and Time Lords throughout time and space. Moffat's Time War was resolved by hiding Gallifrey and blowing up a Dalek fleet. RTD left the Time War to the imagination. Moffat's Time War was very imaginable -- and very small.

In retrospect, I wish Moffat had never touched the Time War.

 

[Starkers]

Oddly i think Moffat's best bits about the TW came in Night of the Doctor because that did portray it as a conflict affecting all of time and space. If anything i think RTD made it look small in TEOT

 

[TommyR01D]

That was always going to be the problem with the Time War - no amount of money could ever have made it live up to the abstract idea. Both show-runners therefore restricted themselves to showing minor skirmishes or the after-effects, with only very brief glimpses of the real thing.

As to the original question: I expected that it would be over by now.