Spoilers DC TV Arrow/Flash Universe Crossover Discussion

[Snaploud]

Yeah...I'd rather see the Atom, Firestorm, and Martian Manhunter in the Justice League that Heat Wave, Captain Cold, and Harrison Wells.

I think the writers and actors have done a better job with Heat Wave, Captain Cold, and Earth 2 Harrison Wells than they have with Atom, Firestorm, and Martian Manhunter. My choices are less about getting the right power mix and more about who I would want to watch on tv.

Well, Mick Rory has access to a reality-altering artefact at the moment

Yep. My Justice League assumes the Spear will be used to give Captain Cold those memories/experiences.

 

[tenmei]

I'd take inspiration for a Berlanti-verse JLA from the current JLA comic - with a few substitutions ...

Green Arrow (in place of Batman)
White Canary (in place of Black Canary)
Vixen (the Mari McCabe version)
The Ray (making the transition from his supposed CW Seed cartoon to live-action)
Atom
Mon-El (seeking redemption and reinvention on Earth 1 from his past on Earth 38, substituting for Lobo)
Frost

 

[dahj]

With the exception of The Elongated Man

He was mentioned on The Flash, maybe he'll show up eventually...

 

[Christopher]

[The Elongated Man] was mentioned on The Flash, maybe he'll show up eventually...

Well, Ralph Dibny was mentioned in episode 7 as one of the 14 people believed killed in the accelerator explosion. So if he survived with superpowers, he's been laying low an awfully long time by now.

Others mentioned on that list, by the way, included Ronnie Raymond, Al Rothstein/Nuklon (who was revealed in season 2 to have been on vacation at the time and thus still alive), Grant Emerson/Damage, Will Everett/Amazing Man, and Bea da Costa/Fire. I'd assume Martin Stein was on the list as well.

 

[JD]

Given that the "anti-hero" version of Snart is dead, it's kind of impossible for him to be part of an Arrowverse Justice League.

My picks for an Arrowverse JLA would be as follows:
- The Trinity -
Kara Zor-El/Kara Danvers/Supergirl
Oliver Queen/Green Arrow
Barry Allen/The Flash

- Members -
J'onn J'onzz/Martian Manhunter
Dinah Drake/Black Canary
Cisco Ramon/Vibe
Caitlin Snow/Killer Frost
Martin Stein/Jefferson Jax/Firestorm
Ray Palmer/The Atom
Nathaniel Haywood/Steel
Kendra Saunders/Hawkgirl
Mari Jiwe McCabe/Vixen
John Constantine

This is pretty close to mine, although I'd switch out Black Canary for White, take Caitlin off since she doesn't use her powers, and get rid of Hawkgirl too since she seems to be pretty much out of the picture at this point.

 

[DigificWriter]

^ I put Dinah on there because she's a Metahuman, whereas Sara isn't, put Caitlin on there because I think it's only a matter of time before she realizes that she can use her powers WITHOUT giving in to the darkness that is the Killer Frost persona, and put Hawkgirl on there because she gives the team more diversity in terms of powers/skills.

 

[Christopher]

^ I put Dinah on there because she's a Metahuman, whereas Sara isn't

True... but in a battle of the Canaries, I'd still bet on Sara.

put Caitlin on there because I think it's only a matter of time before she realizes that she can use her powers WITHOUT giving in to the darkness that is the Killer Frost persona

That I agree with.

and put Hawkgirl on there because she gives the team more diversity in terms of powers/skills.

Plus she's really, really hot.

 

[JD]

^ I put Dinah on there because she's a Metahuman, whereas Sara isn't, put Caitlin on there because I think it's only a matter of time before she realizes that she can use her powers WITHOUT giving in to the darkness that is the Killer Frost persona, and put Hawkgirl on there because she gives the team more diversity in terms of powers/skills.

I guess I'll give you Caitlin, but I'd still go with Sara over Dinah. Sara has proven she can hold her own against some pretty big bads, and she has a much longer history as a superhero. I guess there isn't really anything keeping Hawkgirl from coming back to join up.

 

[DigificWriter]

^ Because she doesn't have powers, Sara represents a redundancy on a team also featuring Oliver, whereas Dinah doesn't because of her sonic abilities.

 

[Christopher]

^ Because she doesn't have powers, Sara represents a redundancy on a team also featuring Oliver, whereas Dinah doesn't because of her sonic abilities.

This is fiction. It's not about a checklist of powers, it's about the characters, the personalities, the chemistry among leads. I mean, if you want to talk about power redundancy, it's pretty redundant to have Superman, Wonder Woman, and Martian Manhunter on the same team, but there you go. They're there because they're among the top-tier characters in the DC Universe. In the case of the Arrowverse, White Canary is one of the top-tier characters -- in-universe, because of her proven leadership ability, experience, and connections to the rest of the hero community, and in real-world terms, because of her longevity in the franchise and her popularity with viewers.

 

[DigificWriter]

^ I brought up the point about redundancy as a justification for my decision to omit Sara.

I love Sara and agree that she's a top-tier Arrowverse character, but I intentionally wanted to create as diverse a Justice League - not only in terms of gender and ethnicity but powers/skills - as possible, and, because she's a powerless "street-level" heroine, having her on a team that also features Oliver Queen made her redundant.

 

[Morpheus 02]

^ I brought up the point about redundancy as a justification for my decision to omit Sara.

I love Sara and agree that she's a top-tier Arrowverse character, but I intentionally wanted to create as diverse a Justice League - not only in terms of gender and ethnicity but powers/skills - as possible, and, because she's a powerless "street-level" heroine, having her on a team that also features Oliver Queen made her redundant.

But what happened to the Canary's Cry device that Sara originally had, but given to Laurel? I am surprised Sara hasn't retrieved it yet.

Also, Sara has a lot better chemistry with Ollie. And I totally understand diversity, but also having some strong similarities can be helpful too.

 

[DigificWriter]

^ Dinah has some skill overlap with Oliver, but the fact that she's a Metahuman makes her different from him as well, which is why I chose her over Sara.

 

[Christopher]

^ I brought up the point about redundancy as a justification for my decision to omit Sara.

Yes, naturally, but my point is that I disagree with the standards you're using. To me, the question of what makes the best team is not about statistics and power rankings, it's about characters and relationships and what has the best story potential. That's certainly the standard the makers of the shows would use too, so if we're talking about "Who might star in a theoretical JL television series" rather than "Who might be in a purely hypothetical JL," then naturally it would be more about personalities and actor popularity than about power levels. Heck, I still think that's the only reason Legends of Tomorrow was even created -- as an excuse to keep the Arrowverse's breakout guest characters around and give them more to do.

I love Sara and agree that she's a top-tier Arrowverse character, but I intentionally wanted to create as diverse a Justice League - not only in terms of gender and ethnicity but powers/skills - as possible, and, because she's a powerless "street-level" heroine, having her on a team that also features Oliver Queen made her redundant.

She's the captain of a timeship. I think she's moved beyond "street-level" now.

 

[dahj]

The four-way crossover will air in November this year.

Makes sense to have it earlier so as not to interfere with the momentum of the individual shows leading up to the midseason finale.

 

[Christopher]

The crossover date has been announced.

http://www.cbr.com/arrowverse-2017-crossover-dates/

It will be structured as a pair of 2-hour "movie" events, starting on Monday, November 27 with Supergirl and Arrow (moving from its usual Thursday slot for one week only), then concluding on Tuesday 11/28 with The Flash and Legends of Tomorrow. The CW president says this was motivated by having Flash and LoT already paired in the schedule, though it's unclear whether he just means it in terms of scheduling or if the pairings affect the storytelling too. If so, I could see why they'd want to pair Supergirl and Green Arrow, given the contrast and tension we saw between them in "Invasion!" As much fun as it is to see Kara and Barry hang out together, the Kara/Oliver contrast could be quite interesting to develop further.


Some time ago, I proposed the following:

If I were brainstorming ideas for a 4-way crossover that would involve Supergirl fully, which I gather is the plan this time, I might go for a "chase through the multiverse" premise. Supergirl faces a time-traveling, dimension-hopping enemy and so decides to call on the Flash for help, and he calls in the Legends (not sure how to get Team Arrow involved). After the heroes drive the foe off Earth-38 in Supergirl, it jumps through dimensions, and the Flash installment is about the team chasing it across parallel worlds like Earth-2, Earth-3, and Earth-19. Then the chase expands through time in the Legends installment, and somehow it all comes down to Earth-1 in the Arrow segment.

Although having Arrow be the concluding show now works out oddly, because it seems anticlimactic.

I think this could work even better with Arrow as the second show, since you'd start on Earth-38, jump to Earth-1, then expand to the multiverse and finally through time, a progressive escalation. Of course, that doesn't mean they'll actually do this, but it could work.

 

[N-121973]

I hope that Superman shows up in this one, and not just as a cameo either.

 

[USS Firefly]

I hope that Superman shows up in this one, and not just as a cameo either.

Superman from another world played by Tom Welling?

 

[Marc]

Superman from another world played by Tom Welling?

God I hope not.

 

[dahj]

If so, I could see why they'd want to pair Supergirl and Green Arrow, given the contrast and tension we saw between them in "Invasion!"

I'd really like a standalone Arrow/Supergirl crossover this year as well.
We already had two Flash ones, seems only fair...