Starfleet is a Space Navy (military fleet)

[Shawnster]

The next time a fifteen year old steals a helicopter and tries to run away to a foreign country and then manages to avoid serious jail time for it -- let alone being put back into the training program after a stern talking to -- let me know. I am very curious to see what the actual military procedure would be for that sort of circumstance.

Ever see the movie "Iron Eagle?" A boy, a civilian steals a military fighter. He doesn't end the movie in any sort of legal trouble.

Also, as noted earlier, Hogan's Heroes and McHale's Navy portrayed lax military personnel.

For me, even if Starfleet doesn't fit the exact definition of a modern military it still serves many military functions. Which, from this thread, apparently makes it a "paramilitary." Ok, if that terms sautes the masses, whatever, at this point. But, Starfleet is still an official branch of the Federation that operates in defensive and offensive capabilities. So, even if it isn't "the military of the Federation" it serves in that role.

1. Whose definition of modern military are we using? Must we go by the United States military? We have the whole globe to choose from for military examples. It seems the majority of this discussion is using the United States as the sole example.

2. Why are we using a modern definition of military for this discussion? People are showing how different Starfleet is from today's military as evidence Starfleet is not military. Why should or would a military 300 or so years in the future look like today's military? How different does today's military look from the militaries of the 17th or 18th centuries? Imagine the discussion ... "United States officers do not purchase their rank, therefore they cannot be military." or "United States soldiers do not practice standard 17th or 18th fighting styles with skirmish/scrimmage lines or whatnot... they cant be true military."

3. Why is it that people are willing to "reinterpret for the 23rd/24th centuries" definitions of soldiers, paramilitary, etc... but aren't willing to reinterpret the definition of the word military? If we hide behind the rationalization that words will change definitions in 300 years, then that must apply equally to all.

The police fight internal threats to citizens. The military fights external enemies of the state. When the military becomes the police, the citizenry often becomes the enemy of the state.

EXACTLY! So, in the case of Starfleet, how does this apply? Who fights the external enemies of the Federation? If Starfleet is not a military then is this a case where the police have become the military? Should the citizenry be worried?

United Nations Peacekeepers.

Are a military force

http://www.un.org/en/peacekeeping/

Military
UN personnel are contributed by national armies from around the world

http://www.un.org/en/peacekeeping/issues/military/index.shtml

Military
United Nations military personnel are the Blue Helmets on the ground. Today, they consist of over 90,000 military personnel contributed by national armies from across the globe.

Military personnel are the backbone and the most visible component of a peacekeeping operation


Hey, that's interesting. The UN is military despite the fact their primary mission is peacekeeping and not waging war. Kinda like Starfleet.

Salutes
https://i.stack.imgur.com/E2ptA.gif

https://i.stack.imgur.com/WJr6E.gif

 

[BillJ]

Would that be the "bloody, bloody Cardassian war?"

The Minstrel boy...to the wa...

Ahem... sorry
.. I'll see myself out...

If Starfleet wasn't considered the Federation military, it seems like they would've developed one at some point instead of having their key scientific and exploration arm drop everything, every other week to go fight in whatever war the Federation was involved in.

 

[fireproof78]

More than that, scripts were actually signed off by the Pentagon before they were filmed (for SG-1, anyway). Richard Dean Anderson was also named an honorary USAF Brigadier General for his portrayal of Jack O'Neill.

Fun story, General John Jumper apparently lobbied the Stargate writers almost immediately after he became Chief of Staff for a cameo on the show. On the DVD commentary for the episode he appeared in, Lost City, it is claimed Jumper's first question upon becoming Chief of Staff was "when do I get my Stargate cameo?"

Good for him. I thoroughly enjoyed how much SG-1 leaned upon the Air Force and tried to accomplish.

As for Starfleet, I always felt that it was close to the Coast Guard, with some modifications given just how large their area of responsibility is in space. Military in times of war, and exploration in times of peace, with training in both areas and acts in official capacity for the Federation.

Regardless, it's a 23rd century organization that has many iterations. I can see both sides of this argument, I still fall on the military side.

1. Whose definition of modern military are we using? Must we go by the United States military? We have the whole globe to choose from for military examples. It seems the majority of this discussion is using the United States as the sole example.

2. Why are we using a modern definition of military for this discussion? People are showing how different Starfleet is from today's military as evidence Starfleet is not military. Why should or would a military 300 or so years in the future look like today's military? How different does today's military look from the militaries of the 17th or 18th centuries? Imagine the discussion ... "United States officers do not purchase their rank, therefore they cannot be military." or "United States soldiers do not practice standard 17th or 18th fighting styles with skirmish/scrimmage lines or whatnot... they cant be true military."

3. Why is it that people are willing to "reinterpret for the 23rd/24th centuries" definitions of soldiers, paramilitary, etc... but aren't willing to reinterpret the definition of the word military? If we hide behind the rationalization that words will change definitions in 300 years, then that must apply equally to all.

I'm sure the interpretation and definition will vary from person to person, writer to writer and story to story. Hence, this discussion.

 

[Baxten]

lol @ Legal definition

Even cruise ships have brigs



Also:


I'll give you three guesses what staff members on cruise ships call "the little room where we lock people up when they get in a shitload of trouble." And yes, they DO call it this specifically because the Navy calls it this and because alot of the people who came to work for cruise lines as crew members are ex-military themselves.

That almost makes me wonder if that's the reason starfleet started convening court martials, come to think of it. I could totally see Macolm Reed saying "Well, if this had happened in the Royal Navy we'd probably court martial him" and then Archer saying "Court martial, you say? Okay, let's do that."

I should add that Starfleet vessels are not luxury cruise ships; they are armed vessels. The Constitution-class is a heavy cruiser, so the brig would fall under the navy military prison category.

Actually, the US Coast Guard is an example of an armed force which is officially only a military during wartime, the rest of the time it is a maritime enforcement, regulatory and rescue service under a different Executive Department than the military (initially Treasury outside of the WWs, then Transport, and then DHS after 9/11). It is worth noting that it is never referred to as a paramilitary.

No, this is incorrect.

Wikipedia: United States Coast Guard

The Coast Guard is further defined by Title 14 of the United States Code:

The Coast Guard as established January 28, 1915, shall be a military service and a branch of the armed forces of the United States at all times. The Coast Guard shall be a service in the Department of Homeland Security, except when operating as a service in the Navy.​

 

[Crazy Eddie]

You keep making periphery comparisons and then lobbing it on as a more equal counterbalance. Show me one organization from the real world that is as consistent with a military, called a military, functions and acts as a military, etc, as Starfleet is, and I will apologize and permanently leave this thread.

Starfleet has never actually been "called a military" by anyone ever. So excepting that false criterion, once again, we're forced to acknowledge that parmailitary police forces all over the world fit that description perfectly.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Star Trek is a TV show, and TV shows aren't always 100% realistic. Even ones set in modern militaries have included much of what you just posted. Hell, the Stargate franchise has plenty of examples covering each one of those.

Which was one of the reasons I fucking HATED Stargate.

Maybe that gives us a glimpse into my thinking here? Starfleet can get away with some of their bullshit because they're not technically a military organization. But the U.S. Air Force and Marines pulling that same bullshit? That snaps my suspension of disbelief harder than Brett Farve's ACL.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Ever see the movie "Iron Eagle?" A boy, a civilian steals a military fighter. He doesn't end the movie in any sort of legal trouble.

That's because Iron Eagle, while somewhat entertaining from a "Oh cool, F-16 dogfight action" standpoint, is a terrible, terrible movie.

Salutes
https://i.stack.imgur.com/E2ptA.gif

https://i.stack.imgur.com/WJr6E.gif

Sarcastic in the first one, drunk as hell in the second...

If Starfleet wasn't considered the Federation military, it seems like they would've developed one at some point instead of having their key scientific and exploration arm drop everything, every other week to go fight in whatever war the Federation was involved in.

I still think the ACTUAL military forces of former nation states wind up filling that role. In fact, the more I think about it the more sure I am that this is almost certainly the case given that the peace-loving role of the Federation: its members swear never to project their power individually to any place outside their own sovereign territory, so their various militaries are either ceremonial or strictly for defense.

So Earth is probably defended by a combination of the Air Forces of various countries (USAF, RAF, PLAAF, JSDF, etc) that all maintain ground-to-surface weapons that are essentially the warp-powered distant relatives of present day ICBMs (or maybe even weaponized offshoots of the Phoenix and NX-Alpha). There's certainly precedent for the fact that some kind of ultra-long range tactical missile exists in the arsenals of many militaries and wannabe militaries; the Maquis were believed to have cloak-capable cruise missiles and the Cardassians had their "Dreadnought" that wound up in the Gamma Quadrant. if, furthermore, you assume that Daystrom or his successors finally managed to get that damn M5 computer working, then the USAF might be a relatively small unit that maintains all of Earth's missile defenses, planetary deflector shields, ground-to-orbit phaser batteries and the army of security drones that patrol high-value areas without ever getting tired or bored.

And they have no REASON to actually leave Earth, because their job is to defend Earth and they're pretty damn good at it. Anything comes their way they can't handle, they can count on Starfleet coming up with a [tech] that [tech]s the problem away altogether.

 

[GabyBee]

I still think the ACTUAL military forces of former nation states wind up filling that role.

Well we do have the Federation Naval Patrol to consider. Its name implies that it is not limited to just Earth. Also another nail in the coffin of calling Starfleet the Federation's so-called naval force. They already have one. Tom Paris even considered joining it instead of Starfleet.

 

[C57D]

Well we do have the Federation Naval Patrol to consider. Its name implies that it is not limited to just Earth. Also another nail in the coffin of calling Starfleet the Federation's so-called naval force. They already have one. Tom Paris even considered joining it instead of Starfleet.

I fail to see how a wet naval service has any bearing on a space naval service?! That is the least logical suggestion I have ever read.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I should add that Starfleet vessels are not luxury cruise ships; they are armed vessels. The Constitution-class is a heavy cruiser, so the brig would fall under the navy military prison category.



No, this is incorrect.

Wikipedia: United States Coast Guard

The Coast Guard is further defined by Title 14 of the United States Code:

The Coast Guard as established January 28, 1915, shall be a military service and a branch of the armed forces of the United States at all times. The Coast Guard shall be a service in the Department of Homeland Security, except when operating as a service in the Navy.​

Yeah, okay. My interpretation of that may be off. I interpreted the above (and also data from the US DOG not being eligible to be part of SOCOM) as meaning that legally it's a military but other than when transfered to DoN controlled it is not a military in practice but rather a law enforcement, regulatory and rescue organisation.

I fail to see how a wet naval service has any bearing on a space naval service?! That is the least logical suggestion I have ever read.

I agree if the FNP is a wet navy organisation then it's a little odd that it exists on a federal level (although the RCMP which handles both regional and local law enforcement in some areas is a possible model).

Another possiblity is that the Federation Naval Patrol is what the fans refer to as the Starfleet Border Service or similar (the CG to SF's Navy).

Personally, I prefer the former.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I should add that Starfleet vessels are not luxury cruise ships; they are armed vessels. The Constitution-class is a heavy cruiser, so the brig would fall under the navy military prison category.



No, this is incorrect.

Wikipedia: United States Coast Guard

The Coast Guard is further defined by Title 14 of the United States Code:

The Coast Guard as established January 28, 1915, shall be a military service and a branch of the armed forces of the United States at all times. The Coast Guard shall be a service in the Department of Homeland Security, except when operating as a service in the Navy.​

Yeah, okay. My interpretation of that may have been off. I interpreted the above (and also data from the US DOG not being eligible to be part of SOCOM) as meaning that legally it's a military but other than when transfered to DoN controlled it is not a military in practice but rather a law enforcement, regulatory and rescue organisation.

I fail to see how a wet naval service has any bearing on a space naval service?! That is the least logical suggestion I have ever read.

I agree if the FNP is a wet navy organisation then it's a little odd that it exists on a federal level (although the RCMP which handles both regional and local law enforcement in some areas is a possible model).

Another possiblity is that the Federation Naval Patrol is what the fans refer to as the Starfleet Border Service or similar (the CG to SF's Navy).

Personally, I prefer the former.


No, this is incorrect.

Wikipedia: United States Coast Guard

The Coast Guard is further defined by Title 14 of the United States Code:

The Coast Guard as established January 28, 1915, shall be a military service and a branch of the armed forces of the United States at all times. The Coast Guard shall be a service in the Department of Homeland Security, except when operating as a service in the Navy.​

[/QUOTE]

Yeah, okay. My interpretation of that may be off. I interpreted the above (and also data from the US DOG not being eligible to be part of SOCOM) as meaning that legally it's a military but other than when transfered to DoN controlled it is not a military in practice but rather a law enforcement, regulatory and rescue organisation.

I fail to see how a wet naval service has any bearing on a space naval service?! That is the least logical suggestion I have ever read.

I agree if the FNP is a wet navy organisation then it's a little odd that it exists on a federal level (although the RCMP which handles both regional and local law enforcement in some areas is a possible model).

Another possiblity is that the Federation Naval Patrol is what the fans refer to as the Starfleet Border Service or similar (the CG to SF's Navy).

Personally, I prefer the former.

 

[Timo]

Aren't we overlooking the fact that the two known aspects of the FNP are that it can be entered after high school, and operates ancient sailing ships?

All the speculation on Memory Alpha appears utter bullshit. This is not a military organization at all, but some sort of a reenactor group that serves the interests of history buffs like Tom Paris - or then the Sea Scouts of the 24th century, but open to the more mature connoiseurs as well.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[jaime]

Aren't we overlooking the fact that the two known aspects of the FNP are that it can be entered after high school, and operates ancient sailing ships?

All the speculation on Memory Alpha appears utter bullshit. This is not a military organization at all, but some sort of a reenactor group that serves the interests of history buffs like Tom Paris - or then the Sea Scouts of the 24th century, but open to the more mature connoiseurs as well.

Timo Saloniemi

Sounds about right. On the other hand, didn't Reed mention the Royal Navy still being a thing?
Regardless, I don't think the Federation would even need a navy on a united earth, but if there was one, it wouldn't preclude Starfleet being a bit like one, but would make them both being referred to as the Navy anywhere.

 

[Timo]

Reed came from a line of Royal Navy men, his father having been one. The story point was that Reed himself had to make a choice between continuing the family tradition and going to Starfleet. But he could have made the choice even if the Royal Navy was disbanded in 2150 to comply with the World Government thing. Or even if the RN were disbanded earlier on, but some other seagoing organization were available to him back then. After all, the big issue was specifically seagoing - Reed was prone to seasickness.

This doesn't tell us much about the existence of seagoing militaries or other seagoing-only services, government, corporate or third sector, in the traditional Trek eras. Our best hint might be how Kirk in "Tomorrow is Yesterday" shoots down Captain Christopher's reference to "the Navy" with a quick "We are a combined service". If Kirk is being even halfway truthful there, he seems to be thinking that a Navy of the USN sort is an irrelevant thing of the past.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Reed came from a line of Royal Navy men, his father having been one. The story point was that Reed himself had to make a choice between continuing the family tradition and going to Starfleet. But he could have made the choice even if the Royal Navy was disbanded in 2150 to comply with the World Government thing. Or even if the RN were disbanded earlier on, but some other seagoing organization were available to him back then. After all, the big issue was specifically seagoing - Reed was prone to seasickness.

This doesn't tell us much about the existence of seagoing militaries or other seagoing-only services, government, corporate or third sector, in the traditional Trek eras. Our best hint might be how Kirk in "Tomorrow is Yesterday" shoots down Captain Christopher's reference to "the Navy" with a quick "We are a combined service". If Kirk is being even halfway truthful there, he seems to be thinking that a Navy of the USN sort is an irrelevant thing of the past.

Timo Saloniemi

Actually, I interpret Kirk's dialogue almost the opposite way, as him saying the Starfleet as an organisation combines elements from naval forces, as well as (by implication) air forces, law enforcement and even marines or army.

I think you could also argue that it implies that if the USN still exists as an national organisation, it doesn't have anything to do with space travel.

 

[Tenacity]

100 percent of Ds9 episodes are exploration

Especially like the episodes where they "explore" the holosuites.

Even during peacetime, a military is always planning and training for war

The Corbomite Maneuver, we saw the Enterprise's crew engaged in repeated battle drills.

Starfleet officers don't salute.

Starfleet officers are not barred from fraternizing with Starfleet enlisted crew members.

When have we seen a Starfleet officer in a romantic or sexual relationship with a Starfleet enlisted?

Airlines have a Captain and a First Officer on every flight.

Those are not ranks, they are job descriptions.

Even cruise ships have brigs

Cruise ship have holding cells, not brigs, and in the article you linked to, it said this; "If you've done something illegal, you can expect to be turned over to local law enforcement." Starfleet has it's own internal military justice and prison system.

That's because Iron Eagle, while somewhat entertaining from a "Oh cool, F-16 dogfight action" standpoint, is a terrible, terrible movie.

Iron Eagle was a awesome movie ... the sequel was terrible.

Also another nail in the coffin of calling Starfleet the Federation's so-called naval force.

From the TAS episode The Ambergris Element, we learn that the Enterprise does carry boats.

 

[Nyotarules]

Well we do have the Federation Naval Patrol to consider. Its name implies that it is not limited to just Earth. Also another nail in the coffin of calling Starfleet the Federation's so-called naval force. They already have one. Tom Paris even considered joining it instead of Starfleet.

"The Federation Naval Patrol was a military organization dedicated to ensuring security and exploring the oceans of member worlds."

It might not be limited to 'just Earth' but it is limited to just oceans. I doubt they are called upon to go fight in space the Klingons, Romulan or Cardessians or even the Dominion. If the enemy landed on any Federation planet then I can see them taking action.

The Royal Navy is sea based, (cos the U.K is an island), The British Army is land based, Royal Air force, well its in the name. Three different sections of the armed forces ALL are military for the U.K.

The confusion about Starfleet comes about due to poor world building on the part of the writers and inconsistencies in canon. But if it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck I don't care how often the duck says its an exploring platypus I'd take actions over words any day.

 

[jaime]

"The Federation Naval Patrol was a military organization dedicated to ensuring security and exploring the oceans of member worlds."

It might not be limited to 'just Earth' but it is limited to just oceans. I doubt they are called upon to go fight in space the Klingons, Romulan or Cardessians or even the Dominion. If the enemy landed on any Federation planet then I can see them taking action.

The Royal Navy is sea based, (cos the U.K is an island), The British Army is land based, Royal Air force, well its in the name. Three different sections of the armed forces ALL are military for the U.K.

The confusion about Starfleet comes about due to poor world building on the part of the writers and inconsistencies in canon. But if it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck I don't care how often the duck says its an exploring platypus I'd take actions over words any day.

But then there's the....hey...where's perry?

 

[Timo]

"The Federation Naval Patrol was a military organization dedicated to ensuring security and exploring the oceans of member worlds."

Yup, as I said, bullshit speculation. Nothing about "military" or "security" or "exploration" or "member worlds" was ever established about the FNP, only the fact that it would allow young Paris to consummate his love of ancient sailing ships.

It might not be limited to 'just Earth' but it is limited to just oceans. I doubt they are called upon to go fight in space the Klingons, Romulan or Cardessians or even the Dominion. If the enemy landed on any Federation planet then I can see them taking action.

I'd be highly surprised to see the Sea Scouts called upon to go fight, too. How would they carry their ancient sailing ships to Vulcan's shallow and salty seas anyway?

The thing is, Starfleet does everything in the UFP. They're the defense force in all elements as far as we can tell; they have a Terraform Command of their own; ships registered to the organization carry around passengers and conduct research; and Starfleet is the only law enforcement agency ever witnessed operating within the UFP. Why would the defense of watery spots fall outside their area of responsibility?

The Royal Navy is sea based, (cos the U.K is an island), The British Army is land based, Royal Air force, well its in the name. Three different sections of the armed forces ALL are military for the U.K.

The fun thing is, just a century ago, only one of them was. Never mind that the Air Force didn't exist yet - the Navy did, but it explicitly was not Military, because Military meant Army exclusively, and specifically with the purpose of excluding the Navy. Which is sort of understandable historically, because standing Armies have been hotly debated issues, yet a Navy cannot help but be a standing one.

Heck, there were still books being written in the 1950s where "military" meant Army and Army alone, and carefully set it apart from Navy.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Nyotarules]

Ok so even if we don't use the word 'military' Starfleet is the armed forces of the Federation. No one else is called on to the defend the Federation when war or disaster strikes. Perhaps in another universe there is no 'first and last line of defense Starfleet' and all Federation adult citizens are part time fighters in a local militia and all Starfleet does is map stars, study quasars and say howdy to new alien worlds. Their version of Picard must be having orgasms....