Iron Fist (Marvel/Netflix)

[Hound of UIster]

Ok, what are the proofs that the rest of Chinese people feel that Kung-fu is an incredible important part of their culture, heritage and personal life which somewhat defines their intimate essence? And I intend all the 1374.6 million people, from the Ningxia inner region to the city of Shanghai?

We are talking about the American/English speaking reaction to this, which the hyphenated Asian demographic is part of. What the mainland Chinese think is an altogether different issue and totally a non-sequitur (much like you original argument about Japanese appriopriation is sports anime/managa). And like I said it's not useful to use stories of OP's "family members" to determine what a large hyphenated demo think about this.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

And like I said it's not useful to use stories of OP's "family members" to determine what a large hyphenated demo think about this.

That's best left to blogs and reviews.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

It's difficult to generalize a population of over 16 million people who come from a vast range of cultures and ethnic-social-religious-linguistic backgrounds.

...which would apply to something as vague as--

Not when there is movement from the same generational set accusing Marvel (and American society) in general for being racist or out to get them.

--all nameless, faceless. In my reference, I'm referring to real people with real opinions from the group in question. This "generational set" is not only of an undetermined scale, but are in truth, as "unhelpful" in understanding a sub-group when this representation could be a collection of people from various, non-Chinese backgrounds--some with their own agendas (something that angers some of the relatives I referred to). Far different than real Chinese people who know--and do no see (as part of the original point) kung fu as the natural part of their beliefs, nor do they appreciate what comes off (in some productions) as liberal feel good (for the producers) preaching. It is seen as being on a soapbox, rather than coming from any genuine source of interest (and not benefitting the story).

 

[Hound of UIster]

And I'll say again you are wrong. You are trying to frame this argument as your "family" being the ultimate arbiter of what is legitimately "Asian" or "Chinese" and these "others" being wrong. I am just pointing out again this is ultimately wrong. Asians-Americans account for over 18 million of Americans, Chinese-American for over 3 million and even within this group there is a great amount of diversity both in America as well as from their place of origin and the additional contentious issue of what even counts for being "Chinese-American" that no one person can speak on behalf of either group. But on the other hand I can note for you the larger community trends such as the Woke Asians or the protests for Peter Liang have all been leading to more friction with Mainstream America.

 

[Skipper]

As you noted, @TREK_GOD_1's arguments are anecdotal. Still you didn't give us any proof that the rest of the Chinese-American community believe that Kung-Fu is an incredible important part of their existence and they are outraged by the Marvel's representation of it.

Because, I respectfully remind you, the original post was about Kung Fu and Iron Fist, and not about the wider argument of Asian culture misrepresentation in media.

 

[Skipper]

If IF was just about some dude who learned Kung Fu at the storefront martial arts school down the street that would be one thing, but we're talking about a guy with chi based powers who was trained in an ancient mystical city. Even if the show doesn't focus a lot of time on the philosophical elements, they should still try to present what they do fairly authentically. All I'm talking about is basing it around authentic Chinese philosophies rather than old '60s or '70s racist stereotypes and cliches.

And still every early review of IF Is just saying that the show is simply bland, not that it's racist or else.
And I can't see why we need "authenticity" in a tv show about "Mystic Cities" (Mystic Cities that, from I'm gathering from the reviews, are not the focus of IF, just a narrative device). Scientists and science, for example, are terribly misrepresented in Media. Still we can enjoy Spider-Man without they constantly explain us what are the "authentic" genetics, "authentic" science, "authentic" scientists and so on...

 

[JD]

I already told you, I'm not talking about Iron Fist specifically, just this kind of stuff in general with the basic idea of Iron Fist just as a generalized example.
I'm not saying it has to be some lecture on the details of Asian beliefs, all I'm saying is that if you're going include stuff like this it should be authentic, even if it only take up five minutes of a 13 hour series.
You might love racist caricatures and stereotypes, but a lot of people find it offensive, and I personally think it would be better to try to avoid offending people if possible. I also enjoy learning about other cultures and I think a show like Iron Fist would be a great opportunity to learn even just little about Asian beliefs.
Bottom line, if your going to include stuff based off of another culture, be true to that culture and don't use offensive racist bullshit.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

As you noted, @TREK_GOD_1's arguments are anecdotal. Still you didn't give us any proof that the rest of the Chinese-American community believe that Kung-Fu is an incredible important part of their existence and they are outraged by the Marvel's representation of it.

Moreover, the real world cultural views of actual members of a specific race hold more weight than some faceless group or certain individuals (usually, but not limited to white liberals) with an agenda to speak (from On High) for others based on a product the general public has not seen. That kind of reaction is suspect at best, and is arrogant in the extreme in assuming they know best / how an entire group of people feel, or what they desire.

Because, I respectfully remind you, the original post was about Kung Fu and Iron Fist, and not about the wider argument of Asian culture misrepresentation in media.

Agreed, and in the Iron Fist discussion, the idea of kung fu assumed to be some across the board part of everyday Chinese life/culture is wrongheaded in too many ways to detail here.

 

[kitik]

I'm reserving judgement for now. After how almost universally lauded the other three shows were, it seems odd that they'd cock it up at the final hurdle before Defenders.

Think about it. They announced that these were the 4 Defenders characters years ago, but there was a reason they saved Iron Fist for last. Not because they were saving the best for last, but because they simply didn't know how to do him right.

As recently as last year, we were still hearing rumors that they didn't know which show to produce next, be it DD season 3, Punisher, or Iron Fist. That's a pretty sure sign that they just simply did not know what to do with Iron Fist. We're getting this show now so they can move on to Defenders. Simple as that.

Now that said, hey, maybe the back half of the season will be better. I'll be watching it for sure.

 

[Reverend]

Think about it. They announced that these were the 4 Defenders characters years ago, but there was a reason they saved Iron Fist for last. Not because they were saving the best for last, but because they simply didn't know how to do him right.

As recently as last year, we were still hearing rumors that they didn't know which show to produce next, be it DD season 3, Punisher, or Iron Fist. That's a pretty sure sign that they just simply did not know what to do with Iron Fist. We're getting this show now so they can move on to Defenders. Simple as that.

Now that said, hey, maybe the back half of the season will be better. I'll be watching it for sure.

I recall hearing similar rumours about Daredevil, Jessica Jones and Luke Cage early on before the camera were even rolling and just like 99% of all internet rumours, it all turned out to be BS. So you'll forgive me for not giving the latest round the slightest bit of attention, especially since the kind of sites that circulate these rumours get their revenue directly from posting fluff with superficially controversial headlines. It doesn't matter that most of it's bollocks since the internet has the memory of a concussed goldfish when it comes to this sort of thing.

So far as I'm aware, they've always said the plan was to do Iron Fist last because of the four, he's the most explicitly "out there" character, at least in terms of the mythology. That's the real issue in regards to production order, not the social implications of the subject matter.

 

[JD]

Yeah, each series has really gotten more and more "out there" as they've gone along. So with that progression, it makes sense Iron Fist would be last.

 

[cylkoth]

Think about it. They announced that these were the 4 Defenders characters years ago, but there was a reason they saved Iron Fist for last. Not because they were saving the best for last, but because they simply didn't know how to do him right.

As recently as last year, we were still hearing rumors that they didn't know which show to produce next, be it DD season 3, Punisher, or Iron Fist. That's a pretty sure sign that they just simply did not know what to do with Iron Fist. We're getting this show now so they can move on to Defenders. Simple as that.

Iron Fist was slotted in the forth position because he is the most mystic influenced member of The Defenders (dude fought a dragon and got a chi powered fist...), and magic had not been introduced yet in the MCU. They had Doctor Strange on the docket, and waited for him to open that door to mystical powers, rather than tech based, evil experiments, or alien derived abilities.
His introduction coming last had nothing to do whether they had no idea how they were going handle him, or the instant popularity of Punisher's appearances in DD.

 

[Turtletrekker]

And awaaay we go!

 

[Skipper]

And awaaay we go!

Sooo, what's the verdict? It's the most racist thing ever appeared on screen after Griffith's Birth of a Nation? By comparison the character of I. Y. Yunioshi in Breakfast at Tiffany's is a bastion of cultural sensitivity?

The U.S. are risking a diplomatic incident with China on the subject?

Please, the rest of the world needs to know what's at stake!!!

 

[Reverend]

Most of the criticism I'm seeing from sources that I trust are saying the first six episodes are just boring. Nothing to do with casting beyond the fact that apparently the star isn't very interesting, has flat dialogue and inconsistent character motivation. Also apparently too much of a meal is made of the "mystery of Danny Rand" when the audience knows full well he is who he claims to be and the "mystery of The Hand" when the audience who have watch Daredevil already know who they are.
Oh dear. Let's hope the second half is better...?

 

[Skipper]

Iron Fist star Finn Jones: how does it feel to be the world's most hated superhero?

 

[Turtletrekker]

Someone has an agenda.

 

[tenmei]

Damn - this is awesome so far. Three episodes in, and I really have no idea what the critics were talking about in their reviews. Practically none of it is correct from my viewpoint.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Damn - this is awesome so far. Three episodes in, and I really have no idea what the critics were talking about in their reviews. Practically none of it is correct from my viewpoint.

I'm not disagreeing.

 

[Anwar]

Iron Fist star Finn Jones: how does it feel to be the world's most hated superhero?

Finn Jones is really Halle Berry's Catwoman? Who knew!