Starfleet is a space religion where everyone gets paid.They speak to me.
Incidentally do Starfleet officers get paid?
Aaand, are there religions in the Federation?
Starfleet is a Space Navy (military fleet)
- Thread starter Baxten
- Start date
- Status
You're forgetting the context of that scene. Picard is explaining to Kolrami why he was initially opposed to the wargames. Long story short, the Borg threat is serious enough -- and WEIRD enough -- that he wants the Enterprise to be as ready as it can be if and when Starfleet has to get involved.
So strictly speaking, Starfleet is something we could properly describe as "paramilitary explorers."
Which is interesting, because they DID have a uniformed armed force prior to the clone wars, in addition to the Jedi. Various security forces were tasked with anti-piracy missions both with and without the assistance of the Jedi but these were never once considered to be a "military" of the Republic. These, too, would be considered a form of "paramilitary police."
Where can you find treasure, search Risa for pleasure
Learn transporter technology
Where can you begin to make your dreams all come true
Defiant or Enterprise-E
Where can you learn to fly, and orbital skydive
Study engines with Scotty
Sign off for the Starfleet band or sit in the grandstand
Where 150 alien races meet
In the Starfleet
Yes, you can trade with Ferengi
In the Starfleet
Yes, you can put your mind at ease
In the Starfleet
Come on people, make a stand
In the Starfleet, In the Starfleet
Can't you see we need a hand
In the Starfleet
Protect the Federation land
In the Starfleet
Come on and join your fellow man
In the Starfleet
Come on people, make a stand
In the Starfleet, In the Starfleet
They want you, they want you
They want you as a new recruit
If you like adventure, don't you wait to enter
Starfleet's recruiting office fast
Don't you hesitate, there is no need to wait
They're signing up new crewmen fast
Maybe you're too primitive to join up today
But don't you worry about a thing
For I'm sure there will always be a good Starfleet
Protecting Earth's own galaxy
In the Starfleet
Yes you can trade with Ferengi
In the Starfleet
Yes you can put your mind at ease
In the Starfleet
Come on people, make a stand
In the Starfleet, in the Starfleet
Learn transporter technology
Where can you begin to make your dreams all come true
Defiant or Enterprise-E
Where can you learn to fly, and orbital skydive
Study engines with Scotty
Sign off for the Starfleet band or sit in the grandstand
Where 150 alien races meet
In the Starfleet
Yes, you can trade with Ferengi
In the Starfleet
Yes, you can put your mind at ease
In the Starfleet
Come on people, make a stand
In the Starfleet, In the Starfleet
Can't you see we need a hand
In the Starfleet
Protect the Federation land
In the Starfleet
Come on and join your fellow man
In the Starfleet
Come on people, make a stand
In the Starfleet, In the Starfleet
They want you, they want you
They want you as a new recruit
If you like adventure, don't you wait to enter
Starfleet's recruiting office fast
Don't you hesitate, there is no need to wait
They're signing up new crewmen fast
Maybe you're too primitive to join up today
But don't you worry about a thing
For I'm sure there will always be a good Starfleet
Protecting Earth's own galaxy
In the Starfleet
Yes you can trade with Ferengi
In the Starfleet
Yes you can put your mind at ease
In the Starfleet
Come on people, make a stand
In the Starfleet, in the Starfleet
Last edited:
What I've been saying throughout this thread is that this cannot actually be TRUE of a military organization. What makes it a military organization is a legal declaration by the legislature identifying it as one. Something that CAN do the things a military normally does and occasionally is asked to do those things is called "paramilitary", because it has the virtue of providing military capability without legally BEING a military itself.
It is, again, similar to the difference between a paramedic and a doctor, especially in the sense that paramedics have to be licensed and/or supervised (if at least indirectly) by licensed physicians.
Gene Roddenberry himself (in the TMP novelization) said through Spock that the Enterprise refit was officially a heavy crusier and really should be considered a battleship.
Know a lot about Federation politics, do we?
I know they made Red Forman's hairy twin brother president, so it can't be all bad.
As for this endless discussion, I have become convinced that the Federation is in fact a military dictatorship that admits members after they have been proved they can contribute to the overall strength of the economy, and have the ability to make more war vessels/provide shock troops.
Gene Roddenberry wrote a lot of things. Not all of them were consistent with themselves (or with common sense).
Over the years, Star Trek has obviously been very inconsistent about this which is why both sides can find plenty of evidence for their views. I don't know why people can't accept that neither side is wrong.
By Tuvix.
and circumcision is a requirement
No offense, but you sort of just stepped on your own argument. You've been using the Webster's definition of paramilitary to define Starfleet. Even though Starfleet satisfies the definition of a military, yet now we need to see the Federation's constitution and how Starfleet as an organization is defined in it? And since we don't have access to this information regarding this fictional entity we cannot safely categorize it as a military?
Nonsense.
And if it's only like a military; and not actually a military, what fictional 23rd/24th century Federation entity is it like?
That's Tuvix's other job. He's paymaster and Mohel.
It will be like the things the writers are influenced by. It's merits and definitions are determined by those writers.
Last edited:
For whatever it's worth, this is from the official Startrek.com website:
Branch of the United Federation of Planets assigned to the exploration of space and the resulting scientific, diplomatic and defensive duties. Starfleet began as an Earth agency dedicated to space exploration. To this end, Starfleet utilized interstellar starships and eventually built and maintained a network of starbases. The first warp 5 starship, the Enterprise NX-01, was launched in April 2151 and captained by Jonathan Archer. The ship represented humankind's first foray into long-term space travel. - See more at: http://www.startrek.com/database_article/starfleet#sthash.loPHUxdX.dpuf
This suggests that Starfleet might most appropriately be defined as a multi-role goverment agency.
Compare with the description of the US Coast Guard:
The Coast Guard is the principal Federal agency responsible for maritime safety, security, and environmental stewardship in U.S. ports and waterways. In this capacity, the Coast Guard protects and defends more than 100,000 miles of U.S. coastline and inland waterways, and safeguards an Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ) encompassing 4.5 million square miles stretching from North of the Arctic Circle to South of the equator, from Puerto Rico to Guam, encompassing nine time zones – the largest EEZ in the world. As one of the five Armed Services of the United States, the Coast Guard is the only military branch within the Department of Homeland Security. In addition to its role as an Armed Service, the Coast Guard is a first responder and humanitarian service that provides aid to people in distress or impacted by natural and man-made disasters whether at sea or ashore. The Coast Guard is a member of the Intelligence Community, and is a law enforcement and regulatory agency with broad legal authorities associated with maritime transportation, hazardous materials shipping, bridge administration, oil spill response, pilotage, and vessel construction and operation.
The over 56,000 members of the Coast Guard operate a multi-mission, interoperable fleet of 243 Cutters, 201 fixed and rotary-wing aircraft, and over 1,600 boats. Operational control of surface and air assets is vested in two Coast Guard geographical Areas (Pacific and Atlantic), nine Coast Guard Districts, and 35 Sectors located at strategic ports throughout the country. Six Mission Support Logistics and Service Centers provide services for operational assets and shore facilities. Coast Guard program oversight, policy development, and personnel administration are carried out at Coast Guard Headquarters located on the St. Elizabeths campus in Washington, DC.
(from USCG.mil)
Sounds a lot like Starfleet right?
Particularly if you assume that the Command, Operations and Tactical functions are handled by the above, and the "blue shirts" are mostly these guys:
NOAA is an agency that enriches life through science. Our reach goes from the surface of the sun to the depths of the ocean floor as we work to keep citizens informed of the changing environment around them.
From daily weather forecasts, severe storm warnings, and climate monitoring to fisheries management, coastal restoration and supporting marine commerce, NOAA’s products and services support economic vitality and affect more than one-third of America’s gross domestic product. NOAA’s dedicated scientists use cutting-edge research and high-tech instrumentation to provide citizens, planners, emergency managers and other decision makers with reliable information they need when they need it.
(From the noaa.gov website).
NOAA is a federal uniformed service, but while NOAA - particularly from the NOAA Corps - may be assigned to the DoD, they are under the Department of Commerce rather than the Department of Defence as they are not an armed service. On the other hand, the USCG - which has been shopped around various Departments over the years, but has only been part of the DoD during wartime - is a military (or perhaps more properly a naval defence force) because several of it's functions revolve around being an armed combatant force when the situation requires it, but when this isn't required they fall back to their federal roles of ice operations, maritime law enforcement/safety (including fisheries), maritime enviromental protection, aiding safe navigation and search and rescue.
In what way is Starfleet operations inconsist with it being legally and practically similar to the above?
Branch of the United Federation of Planets assigned to the exploration of space and the resulting scientific, diplomatic and defensive duties. Starfleet began as an Earth agency dedicated to space exploration. To this end, Starfleet utilized interstellar starships and eventually built and maintained a network of starbases. The first warp 5 starship, the Enterprise NX-01, was launched in April 2151 and captained by Jonathan Archer. The ship represented humankind's first foray into long-term space travel. - See more at: http://www.startrek.com/database_article/starfleet#sthash.loPHUxdX.dpuf
This suggests that Starfleet might most appropriately be defined as a multi-role goverment agency.
Compare with the description of the US Coast Guard:
The Coast Guard is the principal Federal agency responsible for maritime safety, security, and environmental stewardship in U.S. ports and waterways. In this capacity, the Coast Guard protects and defends more than 100,000 miles of U.S. coastline and inland waterways, and safeguards an Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ) encompassing 4.5 million square miles stretching from North of the Arctic Circle to South of the equator, from Puerto Rico to Guam, encompassing nine time zones – the largest EEZ in the world. As one of the five Armed Services of the United States, the Coast Guard is the only military branch within the Department of Homeland Security. In addition to its role as an Armed Service, the Coast Guard is a first responder and humanitarian service that provides aid to people in distress or impacted by natural and man-made disasters whether at sea or ashore. The Coast Guard is a member of the Intelligence Community, and is a law enforcement and regulatory agency with broad legal authorities associated with maritime transportation, hazardous materials shipping, bridge administration, oil spill response, pilotage, and vessel construction and operation.
The over 56,000 members of the Coast Guard operate a multi-mission, interoperable fleet of 243 Cutters, 201 fixed and rotary-wing aircraft, and over 1,600 boats. Operational control of surface and air assets is vested in two Coast Guard geographical Areas (Pacific and Atlantic), nine Coast Guard Districts, and 35 Sectors located at strategic ports throughout the country. Six Mission Support Logistics and Service Centers provide services for operational assets and shore facilities. Coast Guard program oversight, policy development, and personnel administration are carried out at Coast Guard Headquarters located on the St. Elizabeths campus in Washington, DC.
(from USCG.mil)
Sounds a lot like Starfleet right?
Particularly if you assume that the Command, Operations and Tactical functions are handled by the above, and the "blue shirts" are mostly these guys:
NOAA is an agency that enriches life through science. Our reach goes from the surface of the sun to the depths of the ocean floor as we work to keep citizens informed of the changing environment around them.
From daily weather forecasts, severe storm warnings, and climate monitoring to fisheries management, coastal restoration and supporting marine commerce, NOAA’s products and services support economic vitality and affect more than one-third of America’s gross domestic product. NOAA’s dedicated scientists use cutting-edge research and high-tech instrumentation to provide citizens, planners, emergency managers and other decision makers with reliable information they need when they need it.
(From the noaa.gov website).
NOAA is a federal uniformed service, but while NOAA - particularly from the NOAA Corps - may be assigned to the DoD, they are under the Department of Commerce rather than the Department of Defence as they are not an armed service. On the other hand, the USCG - which has been shopped around various Departments over the years, but has only been part of the DoD during wartime - is a military (or perhaps more properly a naval defence force) because several of it's functions revolve around being an armed combatant force when the situation requires it, but when this isn't required they fall back to their federal roles of ice operations, maritime law enforcement/safety (including fisheries), maritime enviromental protection, aiding safe navigation and search and rescue.
In what way is Starfleet operations inconsist with it being legally and practically similar to the above?
Bah? Starfleet Academy gave Red Squad their own warship. Yes, warship, the Valiant was a Defiant class ship, it's the one type of Federation starship that is definitively, categorically built for combat with no room for interpretation otherwise. Are you now going to argue that a bunch of cadets were learning archaeology, theoretical physics and zoology in a state of the art warship? Pretty sure there was some combat and tactical lessons going on there.
Yes, Starfleet does have a larger science division than modern militaries, but this is a by-product of them being in space and you need science specialists in space. Even the militant Klingons and Romulans have science officers on their ships.
- Status
