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Balance of terror, balance of evidence?

Maybe the Centurion and Commander were discussing their many campaigns on Remus and maybe on Romulus itself! We know that they treated the Remans badly well maybe they also silenced a rebellion of their own people voicing out concerns of tyranny?
JB
 
Wasn't Eden also located in Romulan space? Maybe there were other planets with life forms opposed to their style of government too?
JB
 
The problem with the "one system theory" is mainly the star map. That map is not one of a single star system but, shows many stars. If all those dots were planets/asteroids then, first, that's a huge number of planets, and second where are the orbits? Plus the Enterprise will arrive at outpost 4 in eight minutes at "maximum" "speed". On the star map the Enterprise blip is just over eight grid blocks away from the Outpost 4 marker.

The way the dialogue is. It sounds like the Enterprise is, as they say, "hauling ass" to Outpost 4. Not moseying along at sublight speeds within a star system. Though, I would note that based on other episodes it seems that warp speeds seem to be slower in high gravity areas.
 
I don't see the map itself as a problem. Of course there would be background stars - the galaxy has thousands upon thousands behind every star system -sized circle one deigns to draw on the sky. This would tell nothing about the scale of the map, other than the mapmakers disliking empty backgrounds. Or more probably the map being a zoom-in on a vast three-dimensional galactic map, with all the background stars shining through rahter than being artificially eliminated.

If warp indeed is slow close to stars (as we literally see every time Kirk goes around the Sun in order to do time travel), this not only touches upon the general travel times and distances in the episode. It also has a profound impact on what it meant for the Romulan plasma cloud to chase Kirk's ship at "emergency warp speed" for two minutes. Did the cloud perhaps move at impulse (what with having no warp engine in evidence), but impulse happened to be faster than warp ten under the circumstances?

"High warp being sublight" would be a great excuse for Riker slowing down to impulse in the extreme hurry of "Best of Both Worlds II"...

Timo Saloniemi
 
Wasn't Eden also located in Romulan space? Maybe there were other planets with life forms opposed to their style of government too?

Eden, Nelvana, Devron. The map of the region around Nelvana in "The Defector" shows lots of star dots overlaid on the RNZ (with names like Legato, Hutzel, Curry), but we don't know if some of those are background/foreground stars that don't actually fall within the RNZ thickness after all (see previous post).

Yet if the Romulans fought with the people of Eden or Devron or the like, they would already be violating the Neutral Zone treaty, and could just as well go through the Zone and fight with outsiders. It's not as if the UFP outposts could stop them, because there would be none on those stretches of the Zone that were factually bordering on Klingon space...

Timo Saloniemi
 
Maybe the Centurion and Commander were discussing their many campaigns on Remus and maybe on Romulus itself! We know that they treated the Remans badly well maybe they also silenced a rebellion of their own people voicing out concerns of tyranny?
JB
FWIW, I don't include the Reman stuff from NEM (or anything from 24th or 22nd century Trek, for that matter) in my TOS head canon.

YMMV.

Kor
 
It also has a profound impact on what it meant for the Romulan plasma cloud to chase Kirk's ship at "emergency warp speed" for two minutes. Did the cloud perhaps move at impulse (what with having no warp engine in evidence), but impulse happened to be faster than warp ten under the circumstances?

But if that's the case why use warp at all to out run the cloud? Just out run it with your own sublight engines, rather than going slower with warp speed.

I'd also like point out the Star Trek: First Contact follows this pattern as well. After traveling at warp one for some time, they were still able to see earth when they flipped the ship around.
 
I'd also like point out the Star Trek: First Contact follows this pattern as well. After traveling at warp one for some time, they were still able to see earth when they flipped the ship around.
It would be odd if they could still see Earth so large from a few of million miles away, but that assumes they were traveling in a straight line.

If the ship were traveling in a circle/loop, then after millions of miles of FTL travel they could emerge from warp only forty or fifty thousand miles from Earth.

From the size of Earth, what do you think, fifty thousand?
 
FWIW, I don't include the Reman stuff from NEM (or anything from 24th or 22nd century Trek, for that matter) in my TOS head canon.

YMMV.

Kor

It's not like TOS was any more consistent with itself than those series were with it, you know.
 
True, but wasnt he a bit hesitant in that identification? I dont have time to chase up the episode but wasnt it something like " and, I presume this is a Vulcan?". As if he had heard of Vulcans but not really encountered one close up? If so, maybe the Companion had described one to him??
So he forgot he met Solkar? lol
 
"On screen."

"Sir! The Viet Cong commander looks just like. . ." turns and glares, "Science Officer Tran."

"Whydafuhk you look at me for? He North Vietnam!"

"Damn, all those pesky German soldiers look like my Uncle Josef, he came from the old country as well!"
"Never mind, keep shooting"!
 
I tend to give TOS a pass because things were still in flux at the time, particularly in the 1st season, and in the 3rd the whole production team had changed and the new guys really didn't care. They certainly didn't think it would matter. The later series, on the other hand, knew better. And in any case the fans had done most of the work for them.
 
So he forgot he met Solkar? lol
If that were the only encounter Cochrane ever had with a Vulcan, then dozens of decades pass, he might not have been sure.

He might have met many different species during his life, some of whom resembled Vulcans.
 
But if that's the case why use warp at all to out run the cloud? Just out run it with your own sublight engines, rather than going slower with warp speed.

For that matter, why travel in the line of the Big Plasma Ball of Death's direction instead of perpendicular to it? And Kirk grew up in tornado country; he should know what to do.

On the map issue: it never occurred to me, when watching as an isolated fan, that the map showed only a single star system. After all, the map itself identifies as name-worthy locations Romulus and Romii. I can't get behind Romii as an alternate designation for Remus; the kerning just doesn't work.

We get draw some conclusions about the distance between Earth outposts from the transcript: Outpost Two goes silent an hour before Outpost Three, so unless there's multiple Romulan birds-of-prey in action it took under an hour to get from one to the other. Also the Romulan ship manages to get to outpost Eight, giving outposts Four through Seven a pass for some reason.

Outpost Three went silent just before Outpost Four reported itself under attack, when the Enterprise was something over eight minutes away at warp.

Outposts Two and Three are within sensor range of the Enterprise while the ship is five minutes at ``maximum speed'', presumably at warp, from Outpost Four. But there's no making sense of any estimates of Original Series sensor ranges.

Enterprise is able to get debris from Outpost Four while still an hour outside the Neutral Zone. The Enterprise is matching the Romulans' speed at that point. So this would seem to be a key to working out speed capabilities. If done by transporter that suggests --- well, we don't have any first-season-contemporary evidence about what transporter range was. Later contexts would put it that limit at 40,000 kilometers or so but that wasn't in mind of anyone making the episode. And if they sent a shuttle out to retrieve evidence that just brings in the warp-shuttles mess. Also there's no reason to suppose that the Romulan ship is just as fast traveling cloaked as it would be uncloaked; by supposition the cloaking draws so much power that the ship's at lower capacity. Cloaking only while sublight seems plausible.

Eight (at least) Outposts seems excessive to me for one star system, although I suppose we only have evidence that one held any crew.

I'm already on record as being fond of the faster-than-light impulse interpretation of things. It makes sense of Kirk asking whether the Romulans having simple impulse means the Enterprise can outrun them. It also makes sense out of the Romulans challenging an Earth that they would seem to have to know has faster-than-light ships. Not that speed is everything, but I wouldn't want to take on an opponent with an advantage that vast.
 
[QUOTE="Timo, post: 11942238, member: 2277"

The Star Charts interpretation of the RNZ combines the real location of Gamma Hydra with the curvature seen in the "BoT" map and the ellipsoid shape seen in ST2:TWoK to yield an empire that very nicely (and no doubt largely coincidentally) allows for the above plotlines and results in the rimward end of the RNZ brushing more or less against the UFP core and Vulcan, plus against the Klingons who lie where certain TNG era onscreen maps place them in relative terms. That ellipsoid ends up being only about 100 ly long - theoretically a border the early UFP might have fantasies about controlling over its entirety. But of course all borders in Trek leak like sieves, and rightly so, given the performance of Trek sensors.

Timo Saloniemi[/QUOTE]

Only, that ellipsoid shape in ST2:TWoK was the Klingon Empire.

TOS "The Deadly Years" mentions Gamma Hydra IV is in Romulan territory. By the time TWoK comes around, it's Klingon territory. Now some here (I think it might even be Timo), will lead you to believe that was actually Romulan territory in the Kobyashi Maru simulation and the fact that Klingon ships suddenly appear was just another kink to the test.

However, I believe the intent from TWoK was that the territory was Klingon, as I stated above. It doesn't make sense that Klingon ships would respond to a violation of the Romlan Neutral Zone and that the Romulans would not respond. It's clear from Memory Alpha that the accepted understanding was that it's Klingon territory in the Kobyashi Maru. http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Kobayashi_Maru_exam

TNG's "Yesterday's Enterprise" connects the star system to the Klingons.

The explanation in my head canon is that Gamma Hydra was Romulan territory in TOS but changed to Klingon by TWoK either a result of treaty or territorial conflict.
 
I tend to give TOS a pass because things were still in flux at the time, particularly in the 1st season, and in the 3rd the whole production team had changed and the new guys really didn't care. They certainly didn't think it would matter. The later series, on the other hand, knew better. And in any case the fans had done most of the work for them.

TNG+ didn't really mess up much of what was stated outright in TOS, it just violated the made-up stuff the fans thought up in their heads. They didn't enjoy how things weren't exactly how THEY envisioned them to be, when the later writers were under no obligation to do that.
 
For that matter, why travel in the line of the Big Plasma Ball of Death's direction instead of perpendicular to it?

Who says they ran in a straight line? The TOS-R version makes it amply clear that the cloud of death can steer (they show it doing a nice swoop from below right after launch, primarily so that the cloud won't obscure the cool Romulan ship). Heck, for all we know, Sulu turned the ship completely around so that he could flee bow first. He just didn't want to turn the camera away from the one and only target of interest.

On the map issue: it never occurred to me, when watching as an isolated fan, that the map showed only a single star system. After all, the map itself identifies as name-worthy locations Romulus and Romii. I can't get behind Romii as an alternate designation for Remus; the kerning just doesn't work.

The ring around the dot dubbed ROMULUS may be taken for Remus, regardless of artist intention. But we know something about artist intent in Trek: every time a "star system" is explicitly portrayed on screen in TOS (from "The Cage" to "Spock's Brain"), we get nice concentric elliptical lines on which the planets or assorted other objects are riding around the local sun. This one is not in the tradition of TOS star system maps, then.

We get draw some conclusions about the distance between Earth outposts from the transcript: Outpost Two goes silent an hour before Outpost Three, so unless there's multiple Romulan birds-of-prey in action it took under an hour to get from one to the other. Also the Romulan ship manages to get to outpost Eight, giving outposts Four through Seven a pass for some reason.

The multi-ship attack theory would not just preempt possible contradictory evidence, it would be nicely in keeping with the submarine analogy. And no doubt a synchronized attack would have been attempted by the Praetor - but in true submarine style, stealth would ruin the timing, and some of the boats would fail to reach their targets altogether.

Another way to view the chain of losses is to assume that the Outposts also maintain stealth. "Going silent" does not refer to sudden cessation of transmissions, then, but to a scheduled communications burst failing to be sent. This, too, would rather completely negate the value of the evidence - for all we know, Outpost Seven was the first to fall, and the heroes just don't know it yet.

But there's no making sense of any estimates of Original Series sensor ranges.

And the Outposts could be among the most challenging targets, designed to be stealthy against starship sensors. One might have to get up close and personal to observe the cloud of inert rubble before being able to tell whether the Outpost is Out. Supposedly, such observations would involve insystem ranges, as per "Doomsday Machine", although our heroes here could jump to conclusions on lesser evidence.

Enterprise is able to get debris from Outpost Four while still an hour outside the Neutral Zone. The Enterprise is matching the Romulans' speed at that point. So this would seem to be a key to working out speed capabilities.

The heroes were only five minutes away from Outpost Four when the Romulans destroyed it in a sequence that can be argued to take five minutes. So when Kirk orders "parallel course" at the conclusion of the carnage, it's quite possible the ship has already reached the Outpost coordinates and Bailey has stopped here there until Kirk makes up his mind. Sampling of the shattered armor could have been conducted at point blank range, autonomously by Scotty, who would only spring the news at that "one hour from RNZ" timepoint.

Again, this would mean (welcome?) loss of evidence value. As for Scotty's odd antics, well, he would be doing something unexpected on his own initiative, and would not be expected to report immediately, not when Kirk had more pressing matters to attend to. OTOH, what Scotty did would require minimal effort - after all, we never hear Kirk ordering shields raised, and while we can assume those did go up at some point of the episode, they need not have been up at Outpost Four and blocking the transporter. Scanning was paramount at the time, after all, and keeping shields down might be the recommended procedure.

Eight (at least) Outposts seems excessive to me for one star system

The layout of the map, potentially showing one quarter of a circular RNZ, suggests that enveloping a sphere consisting of four such mapfuls in one plane would take two dozen Outposts at least...

although I suppose we only have evidence that one held any crew.

Certainly #4 was atypical in it taking two shots to achieve a kill, or whatever the factor that allowed for a message to be sent out. We could just as well add to the atypicality and say that the extra armor was because of the crew.

I'm already on record as being fond of the faster-than-light impulse interpretation of things. It makes sense of Kirk asking whether the Romulans having simple impulse means the Enterprise can outrun them. It also makes sense out of the Romulans challenging an Earth that they would seem to have to know has faster-than-light ships. Not that speed is everything, but I wouldn't want to take on an opponent with an advantage that vast.

Romulans could always challenge Earth with ships that have high warp - this would mean nothing to their considerations on whether to challenge Earth outposts with ships that are sublight only. Submarine warfare (or, say, infantry warfare) doesn't necessarily imply unavailability of intercontinental bomber aircraft or ICBMs, after all.

Let's remember that our heroes are analyzing a single vessel whose attributes (invisibility, weaponry) have taken them by surprise. They can't be throwing around conventional wisdom about generic Romulan ships, least of all CW a century out of date, when arguing that their power is simple impulse, then: the accusation must be specific to this one vessel. Whether correct or incorrect, it ultimately fails to tell us anything about the weapons of the old Romulan War.

Timo Saloniemi
 
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