Iron Fist (Marvel/Netflix)
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^ That makes it sound much better. I want a good story that includes action where appropriate, not non-stop action in and of itself.
It doesn't ignore them, but it dismisses them in very rude and inconsiderate terms. Just because the reviewer doesn't recognize the racial complications, that doesn't mean they don't exist or that those who do see them deserve to be mocked. And it's staggeringly ignorant of the reviewer to claim that there is no whitewashing just because there's an Asian supporting character alongside the white lead. I mean, the whole problem with the "white savior" narrative is that it relegates Asian characters to supporting a white lead who outdoes them at their own culture, rather than letting them be the main characters in their own stories. So what he's citing as disproof of the problem is actually an intrinsic part of the problem.
Nope, I say he is right on the money. So there.
Albert Ching from CBR posted this piece a while back on why making Danny Asian would be a mistake and a ridiculous cliché from the perspective of an Asian-American. IMHO, he hits it right on the nose.
An excerpt...
Albert Ching from CBR posted this piece a while back on why making Danny Asian would be a mistake and a ridiculous cliché from the perspective of an Asian-American. IMHO, he hits it right on the nose.
An excerpt...
James Whitbrook, io9: The Iron Fist TV Series Is Marvel and Netflix's First Big Failure
There’s a critical concept with the Marvel Netflix shows often referred to as “the wall”—the moment where, about two-thirds of the way through their season, they slam the brakes on the pacing and stakes and preamble for a bit, mostly before pulling it together in the finale. Iron Fist starts by hitting that wall, and has enough problems that I don’t think it’ll ever get past it.
Netflix recently made the first six episodes of Iron Fist—the final entry in its quartet of shows before the long-awaited Defenders crossover this summer—available to press, and as a whole, they’re kind of a mess—far inferior to its earlier predecessors Daredevil, Jessica Jones, and Luke Cage. They balance a dull lead character in Finn Jones’ Danny Rand with shockingly bland fight scenes, far more boardroom business action than should ever be in a comic book show, and a mild dash of poorly-handled representation of Asian cultures.
Netflix recently made the first six episodes of Iron Fist—the final entry in its quartet of shows before the long-awaited Defenders crossover this summer—available to press, and as a whole, they’re kind of a mess—far inferior to its earlier predecessors Daredevil, Jessica Jones, and Luke Cage. They balance a dull lead character in Finn Jones’ Danny Rand with shockingly bland fight scenes, far more boardroom business action than should ever be in a comic book show, and a mild dash of poorly-handled representation of Asian cultures.
Uhhh, I wasn't talking about the quality of the show.........
That's what I had been talking about when I called them "bland drama's", when what I should have said is that, except LC and DD season 1, they feel like generic, badly done drama shows that sprinkle in some Marvel comics stuff. Take away the Marvel names and DD season 2 isn't the worst thing ever, but start calling that crybaby vigilante "Punisher" and the legitimately psychotic asian assassin "Elektra" and it gets pretty terrible (although it still has the problems regardless of that, with Foggy being an a-hole and weak villains in that season, and that's just what I saw before I tapped out I think right before "Elektra" showed up).
Anyway, I'm not that happy to be proven right about IF, mostly because this means Inhumans will probably be worse then I thought.
I'm sorry, but I can't take either you or him seriously. How he can claim an Asian Iron Fist is too stereotypical while claiming Marvel Comics with Immortal Iron Fist with Fraction/Brubaker have subverted the white savior tropes or that Amadeus Cho is not a stereotype character unless you are just batting for Marvel. It seems he is basically an apologist who is trotted out by CBR because of his ethnicity and name.
Edit: Ultimately his post is just deflection and ignores the long standing complaints about Marvel towards Asians.
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That's not what I'm talking about. It's just one facet of a much larger, far more complex and difficult issue. It doesn't benefit anyone to try to oversimplify it and dismiss it cavalierly. You can't cite one isolated fact and claim that cures the entirety of such a multifaceted phenomenon. If racial privilege and unconscious bias were that simple, we would've banished them ages ago. The very reason they're so hard to kill is that they're so pervasive and insidious.
I'm not saying anything as simple as "They should've made Danny Asian." Nothing this complex should ever be reduced to a simple yes/no question. It's much more nuanced than that. There are ways that the issues could be addressed intelligently and handled sensitively even with a white Danny; I gather that there was an acclaimed run on the comics that did so, confronting and deconstructing the issue rather than just uncritically embracing the cliche. I think that's talked about in the article you linked to. But the reviews I've read are saying that there's at least one scene in the show that does uncritically embrace the cliche, having Danny mansplain chi and martial arts to Colleen Wing while in the martial-arts dojo she owns. That's not encouraging.
While it is certainly not a simple issue, it really doesn't help that Marvel keeps erring on the side of white. They used the same excuse to turn the Ancient One white and to keep Danny white, and the whole "don't wanna perpetuate stereotypes" angle just doesn't ring true because they still do keep perpetuating the stereotypes of Asian mystical societies and ninjas and shit, just not with Asian actors...
The issue is further compounded with the fact that Marvel overall has a horrible track record when it comes to diversity, the MCU is built on straight white men in the lead for the last 14 movies, there will be 3 more before a black man plays the lead, and we have to wait until the twenty first movie in the series for a woman to play the lead... in this day and age that's just pathetic.
The issue is further compounded with the fact that Marvel overall has a horrible track record when it comes to diversity, the MCU is built on straight white men in the lead for the last 14 movies, there will be 3 more before a black man plays the lead, and we have to wait until the twenty first movie in the series for a woman to play the lead... in this day and age that's just pathetic.
Nope, I say he is right on the money. So there.
Albert Ching from CBR posted this piece a while back on why making Danny Asian would be a mistake and a ridiculous cliché from the perspective of an Asian-American. IMHO, he hits it right on the nose.
An excerpt...
We even discussed this quite a bit on this board. The nature of the character basically leads to a no-win situation. Either the producers will be accused of stereotyping or they'll be accused of creating a white savior scenario. If Marvel wanted to make one of their characters of Asian descent then it should have been somebody like Jessica Jones or Dr. Strange or Ant Man.
Now, I'm just talking about the concept not having seen the series yet--it could end up being absolutely embarrassing. Both Dodge and Christopher have good points regarding the complexities of this issue. I still want to reserve judgment before seeing the episode--for example there is no reason why Colleen should know what Danny knows about K'un Lun or the powers of the Iron Fist.
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^Well they already made Quake half Chinese, one of the Night Nurses Cuban and Heimdall Black, so they're at least open to the possibility.
But yeah, just like The Ancient One and The Mandarin, a character like Danny Rand is a Catch-22 proposition. Cast an Asian actor it's a cliche, cast a Caucasian actor it's white washing.
I do wonder if this could have been somewhat mitigated if they'd cast someone who is neither Caucasian nor Asian, or at least a mix. Possibly, though probably not.
But yeah, just like The Ancient One and The Mandarin, a character like Danny Rand is a Catch-22 proposition. Cast an Asian actor it's a cliche, cast a Caucasian actor it's white washing.
I do wonder if this could have been somewhat mitigated if they'd cast someone who is neither Caucasian nor Asian, or at least a mix. Possibly, though probably not.
Just now hearing about Iron Fist being savaged by critics and internet reviewers. I'm still going to watch the show, but I'm always bummed to see a CB property be received badly.
As for the race thing revolving Danny Rand, I imagine if they had made Shang Chi the star of the show or even had him as a major supporting character, things would be different.
As for the race thing revolving Danny Rand, I imagine if they had made Shang Chi the star of the show or even had him as a major supporting character, things would be different.
I think the key would be to focus less on who the actor is and more on who the writers are. If the show were written from an Asian-American perspective, by people who were not outsiders looking in but who knew the culture and the issues from the inside, and it would probably be less appropriative and less likely to make the standard mistakes, regardless of the lead character's ethnicity. There aren't many Asian-American TV showrunners yet, but there are some, such as Maurissa Tancharoen (Agents of SHIELD), Albert Kim (Nikita, Sleepy Hollow), and Stephen Maeda (Helix). And there are other up-and-coming writer-producers who haven't reached the showrunner level yet, like the Arrowverse's Ray Utarnachitt and Keto Shimizu.
I came to the Marvel/Netflix series late but enjoyed them all to one degree or another. Daredevil was the best of the lot and I'm looking forward to the Punisher series more than The Defenders miniseries.
As for Iron First, I've never read the comics, don't know any of the backstory but will watch the show. I don't mind a slow burn nor the main character either keeping his powers in check or not being able to access them all the time. I don't care about the casting. I'll judge the show on its own.
As for Iron First, I've never read the comics, don't know any of the backstory but will watch the show. I don't mind a slow burn nor the main character either keeping his powers in check or not being able to access them all the time. I don't care about the casting. I'll judge the show on its own.
The only thing that confuses me with the whole "white washing" thing is that the character has always been white. I thought white washing was when a non-white character was made white in the adaptation?
Now, the white savior complaints do sound appropriate.
Think about it for a second, you said Luke Cage was vanilla.
EDIT:
It's a shame the fight scene in this apparently aren't very good. I've been rewatching Into The Badlands this week in prep for Season 2, and I was really looking forward to comparing it's fight scenes to IF, but it sounds like there won't be much competition.
Into the Badlands fight:
Coleen Wing fight clip released last month:
I have to admit, I was pretty impressed when I watched the IF clip when it was first released, but it loses something when watching it right after ITB's.
I understand IF is going for a more grounded style than ITB, but even taking out the wuxia style stuff out it ITB's is still a lot more interesting. If anything it's style would probably fit IF even better than it does ITB.
Now, the white savior complaints do sound appropriate.
That whooshing sound you just heard was my attempt at a joke flying right over your head.
Think about it for a second, you said Luke Cage was vanilla.
EDIT:
It's a shame the fight scene in this apparently aren't very good. I've been rewatching Into The Badlands this week in prep for Season 2, and I was really looking forward to comparing it's fight scenes to IF, but it sounds like there won't be much competition.
Into the Badlands fight:
Coleen Wing fight clip released last month:
I have to admit, I was pretty impressed when I watched the IF clip when it was first released, but it loses something when watching it right after ITB's.
I understand IF is going for a more grounded style than ITB, but even taking out the wuxia style stuff out it ITB's is still a lot more interesting. If anything it's style would probably fit IF even better than it does ITB.
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I'm not one to usually do this, but the original concept of Iron Fist was that he was a "white" American guy who learned the mystic martial arts of the "east". Granted, it was the seventies, but other series and more recent versions of the character still rely on the same concept. Unlike many other characters, his ethnicity is rooted in the origins of the character. Please correct me if I'm incorrect on this.
Full disclosure, Iron Fist was the fist comic I ever owned back when he was in Marvel Premier, but I never really followed the character much in the decades since.
Full disclosure, Iron Fist was the fist comic I ever owned back when he was in Marvel Premier, but I never really followed the character much in the decades since.
Why should it be more rooted than any other character?
An "outsider learns the foreign mystical ways" origin can work just the same with an Asian-American, an African-American, a Cuban-American, an Irish-American, any American really, and it can work with a man or a woman just the same. Has to be New Yorker though.
And as I said, even a story about a white Danny Rand can at least critique and engage with the stereotypes and assumptions of privilege that are raised by that premise, rather than uncritically perpetuating them. But it doesn't sound like the show succeeds in doing so, at least not in its first six episodes.
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