McCoy's rank

[Longinus]

Neither is a field that lends itself well to part-time practice. Why would you want a surgeon who had spent part of her career learning to be ship captain, or vice versa, rather than one who had concentrated their entire career on one or the other?

I'm sure it is somewhat unusual, doesn't mean it's impossible. Janeway was a scientist, so was Spock. Both became starship captains. If that is normal I don't see a medical doctor becoming a captain being much of a stretch.

As for why one might want a doctor captain, I presume that a purpose of a hospital ship is to render medical assistance to distant planets or stranded ships in case of a disaster, outbreak or other medical emergency. As such, many decisions the commanding officer needs to make, are medical decision. They must be able to asses the priority level of an emergency and assign best possible procedures. And if you say that a non-medically trained captain can have a CMO to do such decision for them, sure, that is possible, but in that case the captain becomes a glorified taxi driver.

Similar arguments of course apply for assigning a captain with scientific background to a vessel which main purpose is scientific research.

Those are their jobs on the ship (though I admit Spock's two hats is odd), but they are still line officers. McCoy is not.

McCoy is not, but Crusher is. Crusher's primary job on the ship is to be a Doctor, just like Scotty's primary job is to be an engineer. And both are qualified and capable of commanding the ship if so needed. I don't find this particularly weird.

Why? That seems like a big bottleneck if, say, things had to be scaled up in wartime. Not to mention if it were obliterated by a V'ger etc. Why not have it decentralized with the equivalent of ROTC, OCS, merchant reserve, boot camps etc., or even multiple Academies? It just seems imagination-constricted, like "We know these Starfleet characters went to the Academy, so they all must have."

It is possible and even likely that it is indeed decentralised and only the main facility is in San Francisco. When the characters refer to the Academy, they may be referring the institution as a whole rather than some specific location.

 

[J.T.B.]

And if you say that a non-medically trained captain can have a CMO to do such decision for them, sure, that is possible, but in that case the captain becomes a glorified taxi driver.

Why would that be? Getting the medical mission where it is needed sounds like an important job. The real-world arrangement, where the hospital part is run basically like a hospital ashore, and the captain is in charge of the ship part and getting the hospital where it needs to be, has been proven effective.

McCoy is not, but Crusher is. Crusher's primary job on the ship is to be a Doctor, just like Scotty's primary job is to be an engineer. And both are qualified and capable of commanding the ship if so needed. I don't find this particularly weird.

The difference is, Scotty's everyday job is directly involved with making the ship work. That's important knowledge for a captain to have, and when he takes command, he can call on that experience. Treating patients in sickbay doesn't convey that kind of relevant experience.

Do we know that Crusher was a line officer? Crusher said she had passed a "bridge officer" test, but was she ever shown doing any duty relevant to commanding a ship? If she was a commander of the line on E-D, she should have succeeded to command ahead of Data. It seems more like a junior officer qualifying as officer of the watch than what it would take to become an officer of the line. So it does seem a little weird, and as @The Wormhole said, probably had more to do with behind-the-scenes considerations.

It is possible and even likely that it is indeed decentralised and only the main facility is in San Francisco. When the characters refer to the Academy, they may be referring the institution as a whole rather than some specific location.

Maybe, but if that's what was intended it could certainly have been expressed more clearly. They make it sound like San Francisco is it.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Do we know that Crusher was a line officer? Crusher said she had passed a "bridge officer" test, but was she ever shown doing any duty relevant to commanding a ship?

We did see her in command of the bridge in 'Descent". And in the alt-future of "All Good Things" she has her own command.

As for the line of succession: I interpreted it to mean that she can stand watch on the bridge if she wants to, but the normal chain of command wouldn't include her (since most of the time she'd be busy in sickbay).

 

[Longinus]

Why would that be? Getting the medical mission where it is needed sounds like an important job. The real-world arrangement, where the hospital part is run basically like a hospital ashore, and the captain is in charge of the ship part and getting the hospital where it needs to be, has been proven effective.

So when there is a swiftly spreading plague on planet X and earthquake survivors needing assistance on planet Y, who decides where to go first? And if you go to the planet X, who decides whether to start rapidly vaccinating the people with a vaccine which worked for similar outbreak on planet Z, or whether to run more test to avoid unforeseen complications?

The difference is, Scotty's everyday job is directly involved with making the ship work. That's important knowledge for a captain to have, and when he takes command, he can call on that experience. Treating patients in sickbay doesn't convey that kind of relevant experience.

Sure, the captain needs to have working knowledge of the mechanics of the ship, but that is just a small sliver of the competence they need. How well equipped you think Scotty would be handling a delicate first contact negotiations with a xenophobic alien species? Personally I'd prefer to have Deanna Troi as captain in such a situation, even if her knowledge about optimal antimatter intermix ratios might be somewhat lacking.

Do we know that Crusher was a line officer? Crusher said she had passed a "bridge officer" test, but was she ever shown doing any duty relevant to commanding a ship? If she was a commander of the line on E-D, she should have succeeded to command ahead of Data. It seems more like a junior officer qualifying as officer of the watch than what it would take to become an officer of the line. So it does seem a little weird, and as @The Wormhole said, probably had more to do with behind-the-scenes considerations.

I don't think you can directly apply the modern staff/line divide to Starfleet, but I think having the bridge officer qualifications comes as close of being a line officer as we can get in the context of Star Trek. As for Data, he was the designated second officer, and that gives him positional authority regardless of the ranks involved.

 

[The Wormhole]

It is possible and even likely that it is indeed decentralised and only the main facility is in San Francisco. When the characters refer to the Academy, they may be referring the institution as a whole rather than some specific location.

Actually, no. A surprisingly high percentage of characters from the 24th century shows are confirmed to have attended Starfleet Academy at San Francisco.

 

[Longinus]

Actually, no. A surprisingly high percentage of characters from the 24th century shows are confirmed to have attended Starfleet Academy at San Francisco.

Surprisingly high percentage of these characters are human commissioned officers from Earth, so that's not actually weird at all.

 

[The Wormhole]

Surprisingly high percentage of these characters are human commissioned officers from Earth, so that's not actually weird at all.

There's one case of an enlisted man, Simon Tarses as being confirmed to have attended the Academy at San Francisco.

 

[Longinus]

There's one case of an enlisted man, Simon Tarses as being confirmed to have attended the Academy at San Francisco.

Good catch. It proves that there are at least some courses for the enlisted there, however, it doesn't mean that it is the only place you can get training to join the Starfleet. I was thinking more about facilities on another planets. It is possible (and I think probable) that there are secondary campuses on some of the other major Federation worlds (at least by 24th century.)

 

[Bob Karo]

We know the Academy has at least a satellite installation in Marseille.

 

[The Wormhole]

We know the Academy has at least a satellite installation in Marseille.

Even that's not completely clear. Tom Paris did "physical training" at Marseille during his second semester, but that does not necessarily mean the Academy has a facility there. Training can often be done off-site, indeed in Enterprise Archer and Trip mention one such instance where they had to head to Australia for their Starfleet training, yet no one thinks there's a Starfleet training facility in Australia. Then again, the majority of Trek fandom thinks Australia was a hold-out when it came to global unity.

 

[J.T.B.]

We did see her in command of the bridge in 'Descent".

Ah, thank you.

So when there is a swiftly spreading plague on planet X and earthquake survivors needing assistance on planet Y, who decides where to go first? And if you go to the planet X, who decides whether to start rapidly vaccinating the people with a vaccine which worked for similar outbreak on planet Z, or whether to run more test to avoid unforeseen complications?

The flag officer with authority over that ship decides where it will go. Once there, the CMO makes decisions on the medical aspects of the mission of course. If that makes the ship's captain a taxi driver, then so were Kirk and Picard when they transported diplomats and supported their missions.

Sure, the captain needs to have working knowledge of the mechanics of the ship, but that is just a small sliver of the competence they need. How well equipped you think Scotty would be handling a delicate first contact negotiations with a xenophobic alien species? Personally I'd prefer to have Deanna Troi as captain in such a situation, even if her knowledge about optimal antimatter intermix ratios might be somewhat lacking.

Agreed about the competence, but likewise is first contact negotiation a small part of a captain's possible duties. If Starfleet needs a captain with more diplomatic experience, they can assign that ship. The captain's primary duty is to have a ship and crew that is ready and capable of carrying out whatever mission they are called upon to perform. Scotty, who commanded Enterprise many times including in action, was shown to have far more experience and qualification for command than Troi was. Maybe she was equally qualified, who knows, but it sure wasn't shown that way.

I don't think you can directly apply the modern staff/line divide to Starfleet, but I think having the bridge officer qualifications comes as close of being a line officer as we can get in the context of Star Trek. As for Data, he was the designated second officer, and that gives him positional authority regardless of the ranks involved.

Maybe, but they used naval ranks and a largely naval ship's structure, so I don't imagine that the choice of terminology was intended to be far different than the naval usage. TNG missed the concept or diluted it, IMO.

As far as position trumping rank, it could be, but placing senior officers under those of a lower rank can cause a lot of problems and is avoided as much as possible.

 

[Longinus]

The flag officer with authority over that ship decides where it will go. Once there, the CMO makes decisions on the medical aspects of the mission of course. If that makes the ship's captain a taxi driver, then so were Kirk and Picard when they transported diplomats and supported their missions.

Except that in Star Trek the captains have wide discretion to decide the destination of their ship and especially how to respond to emergencies. Sometimes they're even so far in deep space that direct communication with the fleet command is not possible. And sure, Enterprises sometimes ferried diplomats, but both Kirk and Picard were fully capable of doing their own diplomacing, and often were expected to do so.

Agreed about the competence, but likewise is first contact negotiation a small part of a captain's possible duties. If Starfleet needs a captain with more diplomatic experience, they can assign that ship.

And if they need a captain with more medical experience, they can assign such.

The captain's primary duty is to have a ship and crew that is ready and capable of carrying out whatever mission they are called upon to perform.

Sure. But I think you're conflating the Starfleet too much with modern navies. Starfleet is not mere military, it is also a scientific and diplomatic organisation, and as such the role of the captain is also different.

Scotty, who commanded Enterprise many times including in action, was shown to have far more experience and qualification for command than Troi was. Maybe she was equally qualified, who knows, but it sure wasn't shown that way.

I'm sure she originally didn't and that's why she had to take the bridge officer test to begin with. Scotty most likely had to take similar test earlier in his career (I think that the Kobyashi Maru test we see Saavik and alt-Kirk taking is probably a similar test.) And I'm sure Troi had to study a lot (off screen) to be able to take that test in the first place.

 

[J.T.B.]

Except that in Star Trek the captains have wide discretion to decide the destination of their ship and especially how to respond to emergencies.

Starfleet captains self-assign their missions? I have missed that I guess.

Sure. But I think you're conflating the Starfleet too much with modern navies. Starfleet is not mere military, it is also a scientific and diplomatic organisation, and as such the role of the captain is also different.

Maybe, but the show as written is not shown to be that different, either. It's hard for me to suspend my disbelief that commanding a Starfleet ship would be less complex than commanding a naval ship today, that is, the culmination of a decade-plus career directed specifically to that end. A medical doctor who switched paths mid-career would be so far behind those who were line officers from the beginning that I don't see them ever catching up.

There seems to be a perception in later Trek that commanding a ship would be easy enough for a gifted amateur to pick up, or could be taught in a relatively short time and confirmed by passing a test. I just reject that completely.

 

[Longinus]

Starfleet captains self-assign their missions? I have missed that I guess.

They certainly have an authority to decide how to respond to emergencies.

Maybe, but the show as written is not shown to be that different, either. It's hard for me to suspend my disbelief that commanding a Starfleet ship would be less complex than commanding a naval ship today, that is, the culmination of a decade-plus career directed specifically to that end. A medical doctor who switched paths mid-career would be so far behind those who were line officers from the beginning that I don't see them ever catching up.

A medical doctor who has worked the bulk of their career on a starship.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Good catch. It proves that there are at least some courses for the enlisted there, however, it doesn't mean that it is the only place you can get training to join the Starfleet. I was thinking more about facilities on another planets. It is possible (and I think probable) that there are secondary campuses on some of the other major Federation worlds (at least by 24th century.)

My assumption with that is (that like Bashir and McCoy at least) he attended the Starfleet Medical Academy (administered by and potentially located at the Starfleet Medical Center) rather than the main Starfleet Academy at the Presidio near SF HQ.

 

[Longinus]

My assumption with that is (that like Bashir and McCoy at least) he attended the Starfleet Medical Academy (administered by and potentially located at the Starfleet Medical Center) rather than the main Starfleet Academy at the Presidio near SF HQ.

Sounds plausible. It is even possible that McCoy had a civilian career before joining the Starfleet and earned his medical decree in some completely non-Starfleet related institution.

 

[Tallguy]

I would like to see a character who is a genuine polymath, with many advanced degrees in medicine, hard sciences of all kinds, engineering, social sciences, liberal arts and humanities, as well as top marks in Starfleet Academy's command course, not to mention expertise in martial arts, music, painting, and gourmet cuisine. So one week, this character could be performing delicate brain surgery, the next week coming up with brilliant engineering solutions, the week after that leading a tactical security detail on some hostile planet, the week after that taking command of a fleet of ships, and finally preparing a fine gourmet meal for the senior staff.

Advanced humans centuries from now will be smarter.

Kor

Paging Captain Banzai. We will rendezvous with Captain Savage at 0930.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Medical officers aren't supposed to be in the chain of command, a fact McCoy himself even states as much. I never read that novel, so I won't comment on it, but the main reason we saw Dr. Crusher take command on TNG was because the writers were embarrassed the by the fact no women actually had command authority on the show.

I think another reason is that most of TOS's creators had real world military experience & knew how these things worked in the service, while TNG's creators, for the most part, did not.

 

[The Wormhole]

Starfleet is not mere military, it is also a scientific and diplomatic organisation, and as such the role of the captain is also different.

No. Everything we have seen Starfleet do can and has been done by militaries today and in history.

I think another reason is that most of TOS's creators had real world military experience & knew how these things worked in the service, while TNG's creators, for the most part, did not.

Oh, definitely. But TNG did have a military expert on their writing staff, Ron Moore, and he did write Thine Own Self, so the need to get women into positions of command authority there is likely the motivating factor there.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

But TNG did have a military expert on their writing staff, Ron Moore, and he did write Thine Own Self...

Right. Which is why I said "for the most part."