• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Last Classic Who Story you watched

If you're going to keep going on about canon -- citation needed. Your opinion is irrelevant outside your head. If you can't back up your idea of canon with quotes from, say, John Nathan-Turner, Russell T Davies, and Steven Moffat, you're effectively making stuff up.

I'm pretty sure you need the citation to claim stuff not seen on TV is canon. My side, that only TV stuff is canon, is the default in basically every situation unless otherwise noted :shrug:

Anyway, back on topic, I watched Carnival of Monsters. The stuff with The Doctor and Jo in the box was entertaining, but everything with the grey aliens and showpeople was tedious and not entertaining at all. Its far from being one of the worst serials, but I didn't like it.
 
The point isn't that the books or audios are canon. The point is that there is no canon.

I'll cite Paul Cornell, who's written for TV, novels, webcasts, audio, and who knows what all else:

Because when you say ‘the books just aren’t “canon!”’ or ‘the books “happened” and the TV show can’t ignore them!’ you’re not saying something like ‘for every action there is an equal but opposite reaction’, you’re saying something like ‘the South will never surrender’. You’re yelling a battle cry, not stating the truth. Because there is no truth here to find. There was never and now cannot be any authority to rule on matters of canonicity in a tale that has allowed, or at the very least accepted, the rewriting of its own continuity. And you’re using the fact that discussions of canonicity are all about authority to try to assume an authority that you do not have.

In the end, you’re just bullying people.

Because in Doctor Who there is no such thing as ‘canon’.

Read the whole thing at http://www.paulcornell.com/2007/02/canonicity-in-doctor-who/.
 
Because in Doctor Who there is no such thing as ‘canon’.

Yup. This is a show that said in its first season that "History cannot be changed, not one line," and in its second had a story about trying to stop a rival time traveler from changing history.

I like to think of Doctor Who as a series of tall tales. They're grandiose and implausible and constantly changing their own rules, and that's part of the fun.
 
The point isn't that the books or audios are canon. The point is that there is no canon.

Yeah, there is. I don't like Cornell's Doctor Who work/opinions anyway, but even ignoring that, by that logic no story is canon to each other, and for all we know every different story is a completely different universe. That's pretty stupid. yeah, the show contradicts itself sometimes, but it being a time travel show gives the potential for a huge number of reasons why we've, for example, heard/seen two different stories about atlantis, etc. But, in a show that has, since literally the beginning, had stories directly follow other stories, there is definitely continuity. I honestly can't think of a show that doesn't have continuity within itself (not counting reboots of shows, anthology shows, or things like sketch comedies). Even cheap old saturday morning cartoons had some basic continuity.

Doctor Who is not a sketch show or anthology, its a show about a character traveling through space and time. it has inconsistencies sometimes, but everything has that, especially franchises that are 50 years old. In the end, the Doctor we watch every week has experienced all the TV stories we've seen, and that's a fact. He hasn't been proven to have experienced any of the books or audio stories. So, yeah, it has as much continuity as most franchises that don't reboot at some point.

Also, Cornell didn't say there was no continuity in that quote, he was saying that fans that try to argue the canon status of books are fighting a losing battle, which makes sense. So, he's right about that.if he goes farther then that I obviously don't agree with him. But since he's a just writer of one or two episodes, a few comics and possibly a book or two, and not the showrunner/producer/etc, his opinion on the matter is no more legitimate then a normal fan anyways.
 
Last edited:
But there is no one on the top that says this. And BBC is adamant that there is no definitive word on it, because its an organization and doesn't care about canonicity of products, only that its products get sold. Thus, there is no definitive word on this issue. Thus, everything counts and doesn't count. If I want to discuss about the Sixth Doctor as per TV and BF, its my right because nothing says that BF didn't happen. In fact, there is precedent since 2013 that says it could have. And even before then, like I mentioned multiple times, there was a clear effort to not discount BF overall. I guess I didin't mention RTD's various Time War comments and how some of BF's audios (including one of Six's) have contributed to its escalation.
 
If I want to discuss about the Sixth Doctor as per TV and BF, its my right because nothing says that BF didn't happen.

None of it happened. They're just stories. Nobody who makes these stories is claiming for a second that there's any actual reality to them; they're just for entertainment. So of course you have the right to discuss any work of fiction that you find entertaining, and it's nonsensical for anyone else to object to that discussion on the grounds that one work of fiction is somehow more "real" than another.

I mean, heck, I write Star Trek tie-ins for a living, but it's a given that not one word of what I've written is part of the Trek canon. It will never be acknowledged by a screen production, and it's likely that some or all of it will be contradicted by some future screen production. And I accept that, because being "real" is not the point. Only liars attempt to pass off fiction as reality, and that's not what storytellers are trying to do. Stories are not claims of fact, they are explorations of possibility. Star Trek and Doctor Who and other fictional universes are already exercises in exploring hypothetical possibilities (or impossibilities) beyond the real world. Tie-in stories within those universes are a way of exploring further possibilities, including those that the main series left unexplored.

That's the cool thing about Big Finish's Doctor Who. It's an opportunity to tell more stories about Doctors who've long since moved on. The audio format makes the actors' aging irrelevant (well, mostly -- there's still an audible difference in their voices) and allows filling in gaps that the onscreen productions can't, or giving more story opportunities to Doctors and companions who didn't get that many chances onscreen, especially Colin Baker and Paul McGann. The only "reality" that matters is our reality -- the fact that we get more opportunities to experience these actors playing their characters once again.
 
But there is no one on the top that says this. And BBC is adamant that there is no definitive word on it, because its an organization and doesn't care about canonicity of products, only that its products get sold. Thus, there is no definitive word on this issue. Thus, everything counts and doesn't count. If I want to discuss about the Sixth Doctor as per TV and BF, its my right because nothing says that BF didn't happen. In fact, there is precedent since 2013 that says it could have. And even before then, like I mentioned multiple times, there was a clear effort to not discount BF overall. I guess I didin't mention RTD's various Time War comments and how some of BF's audios (including one of Six's) have contributed to its escalation.

You can say whatever you want, obviously. But, in the same way, I'll continue with by side of the argument, that only the TV stuff is canon. My precedent is that TV only continuity is the way the show has always been, and outside of one stupid moment in a webisode the series only really either ignores non TV stories or outright contradicts it. Some stuff obviously counts and some stuff doesn't. For me, TV is what counts and that seems to be the policy of the show in general. When old Doctors are mentioned its only TV adventures and appearances. When old companions are mentioned, outside of the one infamous moment in the webisode, its only canon companions (like in that UNIT Dark vault thing, and in the SJ Adventures episode where she only mentions canon companions). If, say, Sarah Jane had mentioned someone like Charley along with Ace, barbara, ian, etc or if the dark vault had pictures of some of the audio companions, I might change my mind. Or if The Doctor had ever specifically mentioned an audio only adventure, you might have a leg to stand on.

But, that didn't happen. It easily could have, but it didn't. Because, as far as the show is concerned, that stuff doesn't count. The episodes of the show aren't written with BF as a factor. Outside of Moffat trying to ruin the 8th Doctor's regeneration by reciting some BF names (which for all we know are connected to completely different types of people in canon), BF is no more legitimate then the thousands of fan stories you can find online for free. My personal opinion that BF is also generally lower quality then the average fanfiction aside, I have more then enough evidence for my side of the argument.
 
Canon and continuity are not the same thing.

Feeling like a Third or Fourth Doctor DVD tonight.

ETA: didn't get around to one last night, but watched Death to the Daleks tonight. Nice short Third Doctor episode (only four parts) that I barely remembered, so it did the job nicely.
 
Last edited:
I'm pretty sure you need the citation to claim stuff not seen on TV is canon. My side, that only TV stuff is canon, is the default in basically every situation unless otherwise noted :shrug:

Sorry, but no. There is no default side in any argument. You need to make your case just like everyone else. As it is, it's just your opinion. It's fine for you to have your opinion, just don't mistake it for fact.

In this context, canon really specifies the creator's intention for a TV show. What the creator/showrunner considers to be "real" in the universe that they are building. The history and facts in the canon affect what the creator assumes the viewer knows about story events and what the show tries to be consistent with going forward. Viewers are, of course, free to choose what they think actually truly "occurs" in a fictional work.

Plus, as others have noted, the DW canon either doesn't exist or has changed so much overtime that it might as well not exist. Having a strong canon opinion for DW doesn't really make sense.

Mr Awe
 
In this context, canon really specifies the creator's intention for a TV show. What the creator/showrunner considers to be "real" in the universe that they are building.

Not even that, really. Creators rarely think about canon, because what they create is automatically the canon, so it's a redundant issue. "Canon" is a term that was coined to describe a work from the outside -- a term used by critics and fans to refer to the original, core work as a way of differentiating it from derivative works like tie-ins and fan fiction. It's a word that has no real meaning except in comparison to tie-ins and fanfic, because if those don't exist, then the work is just the work and there's no need for a special term to compare it to something else. The only times that creators or owners of a property have needed to address the concept of "canon" have been when they've needed to clarify how the core work relates to its tie-ins, as with Star Trek or Star Wars or other things that have a lot of tie-ins influencing people's perceptions of them.

And it's not a matter of what's "real," because it's all just stories. Creators don't generally think of their work in those terms, because nobody is more aware of the unreality of a story than the person who invents it. Canon just means the creator's own story (or that produced by the owners of the property) as distinct from other people's stories based on it. It's not a seal of approval, it's just a category, like land vs. water. The original creator's work is the canon regardless of its internal consistency or lack thereof. Lots of canons have mutable internal "realities," like Marvel Comics with its ever-shifting time frame, or a lot of '60s and '70s TV shows that rewrote their own backstories as convenient. Doctor Who is one of the most mutable and self-inconsistent continuities in SFTV, so there is no uniform idea of what is "real" within it.

In short, fans worry far more about canon than the concept actually deserves. It's largely an invented obsession that serves little purpose beyond giving fans something to argue over.
 
Not even that, really. Creators rarely think about canon, because what they create is automatically the canon, so it's a redundant issue. "Canon" is a term that was coined to describe a work from the outside --
To some extent, sure. But, in regards to the Star Trek franchise, I've heard (but willing to be shown otherwise) that there was a policy that only the TV episodes and movies are official. Events in the novels didn't occur in the TV universe.

Using the term canon probably originated from the outside but describes a real process than can occur on the creative side. Trek TV writers weren't expected to be familiar with the novels and didn't try to be consistent with the novels. However, there were some efforts made to make the TV episodes consistent with the TV universe. There was also an expectation that the viewers would be familiar with previous events in the TV universe, but not the novels. The showrunners might not have used the term "canon," but it effectively described the actual process.

And it's not a matter of what's "real," because it's all just stories.

Of course it's all fictional. That's why I used quotes around "real," just like you did. But, we need some way to discuss what is meant. The meaning is that something is real in the framework of the fictional universe.

In short, fans worry far more about canon than the concept actually deserves. It's largely an invented obsession that serves little purpose beyond giving fans something to argue over.

I'm sure from your perspective you don't use it much because you're on the non-canon side of content so it's really a non-issue for you. And, I'd agree that fans argue a bit too much about what is canon. However, there is a practical side to having an official canon where there is a common set of "official" content. If you're discussing a topic and point to various events in the fictional universe, if the other person doesn't even consider those events as happening, it can make for difficult discussion! The idea of an official canon can be used to create a common pool of "facts" to draw on, argue, debate, etc.

This common set of "facts" can be useful. So, the idea isn't completely without merit. Although, I agree that the importance is often overblown. It's all fictional and everyone can and should choose what they count as "real".

Mr Awe
 
Last edited:
To some extent, sure. But, in regards to the Star Trek franchise, I've heard (but willing to be shown otherwise) that there was a policy that only the TV episodes and movies are official. Events in the novels didn't occur in the TV universe.

That's not a policy, that's the default for how it routinely works. Novels and comics have almost never been counted as part of the original work's universe. As a matter of course, the original work is its own thing, and the tie-ins are extrapolations made by other people, so they're a step removed from what the original creators did/are doing and thus there's no reason to expect the original creators to be bound by them. The term originated to describe Arthur Conan Doyle's Sherlock Holmes stories in order to discuss them in comparison to the stage play and various pastiches of the sort we'd now call fan fiction.

In 1989, Gene Roddenberry and his assistant Richard Arnold did issue a letter which clarified to the public that the tie-ins didn't count, but that just because some fans were assuming the tie-ins did count and that offended Roddenberry's ego, since he'd gotten very possessive of Trek by that point and liked to insist that only the Trek productions he personally oversaw were legitimate. But that was just his own personal hang-up. Fans have assumed it was some official doctrine from the studio, but it was just one insecure old man and his overbearing assistant feeling a need to mark their territory and say "No, Gene invented the Romulans, not Diane Duane" (even though it was actually Paul Schneider who invented the Romulans). The whole reason it left such an impression on fandom was that it was rare. And that's because it's rarely actually been necessary or useful. That one damn letter did so much to warp fandom's idea of what canon is and spawn decades of ignorant, pointless arguments over non-issues.


However, there were some efforts made to make the TV episodes consistent with the TV universe.

That is completely obvious. As a rule, yes, fictional universes do make some effort to create an illusion of consistency. But where the canon fanatics get it wrong is in their expectation that a canon must be absolutely consistent, which is virtually never the case. Even series with strong continuity inevitably contain mistakes and retcons, and some have much looser continuity. And that has absolutely nothing to do with the word "canon." Canon does not mean continuity. "The canon" is a term of criticism for the overall original work. It is not a label that gets applied to each detail individually. The canon is the overall whole that pretends to represent a consistent reality, but which will almost certainly have some degree of inconsistency on the fine scale.



I'm sure from your perspective you don't use it much because you're on the non-canon side of content so it's really a non-issue for you.

For your information, I was writing original science fiction years before I sold my first Star Trek story. At present, roughly half my published works are original (though all but one are short fiction, so my published tie-in word count is higher). So yes, in fact, I am speaking from the perspective of the creator of a fictional universe. I have two ongoing SF universes of my own. And I have treated both those "canons" as mutable and subject to change -- because that's how creativity happens in the first place, by trial and error and revision and refinement. My view of my main original universe has transformed enormously over the decades that I've been developing it, and I now consider elements of my first published story to be apocryphal. As for my other universe, the "Hub" series of comedy stories in Analog, the first two stories were published with mistakes -- entirely my own fault in the second case -- so when I collected them in one volume, I revised them with the corrections made and took the opportunity to expand them as well.

When I was starting out, I was very annoyed by inconsistencies in fiction and made a pledge to myself to avoid them in my own work, to make sure that everything was as completely consistent and free of contradiction as possible. But over the years, even though I've mostly tried to stay true to that, I've still made mistakes that needed to be corrected, I've made scientific assumptions that were supplanted by later research, and I've learned from experience and realized that some of my early approaches to characterization needed rethinking. Every creative work is the result of a process, and any ongoing creation will continue to evolve and grow.


However, there is a practical side to having an official canon where there is a common set of "official" content.

The point is, that is a given. It is not something that needs to be formally defined. That's the myth that's grown in fandom based on anomalies like the Roddenberry letter. It's a matter of course that the work from the actual owner of the property is the core work and that the work from publishers under license from the owner are secondary. That's obvious, but fandom has absurdly overcomplicated the question because of these silly misunderstandings of a very simple concept. It's like arguing over whether water is wet. The fact that something is land rather than water is not something that needs to be formally declared by some official or debated over by nautical fandom or whatever. It's just what the things already are.
 
That's not a policy, that's the default for how it routinely works.
A policy IS the default for how things work. That makes my point.

But where the canon fanatics get it wrong is in their expectation that a canon must be absolutely consistent, which is virtually never the case.
I would agree with this. In my view, the most useful aspect of a canon is a common set of "facts" or "assumptions". For example, if you're discussing why the Enterprise didn't beam the crew up in such and such situation, it would be fair to say because the shields were up and we know that makes it impossible. Or, why did a character react a certain way? Because we know a certain event happened in the character's past. That sort of thing.

For your information, I was writing original science fiction years before I sold my first Star Trek story.
Settle down. I didn't mean it as any slight. Just that you have a specific perspective on this. Although, I'd bet that when writing tie-ins, you're required to be consistent to some extent with something that is equivalent to the "official canon." For example, if you're writing a ST novel, you're not allowed to do something major that violates the TV canon. In this context, it is a useful concept for the creative side even if it's not the term used by the production folk or you.

Overall, viewers should go with whatever works for them. Although, again, agreeing on a common set of "facts" can be useful for discussions.

And I have treated both those "canons" as mutable and subject to change -- because that's how creativity happens in the first place, by trial and error and revision and refinement. My view of my main original universe has transformed enormously over the decades that I've been developing it, and I now consider elements of my first published story to be apocryphal. As for my other universe, the "Hub" series of comedy stories in Analog, the first two stories were published with mistakes -- entirely my own fault in the second case -- so when I collected them in one volume, I revised them with the corrections made and took the opportunity to expand them as well.
And, that's the point that I'm making about it being a construct primarily for creators. You have a view of your work, what is true to the universe you created, and that's how you write it. Sure, it's changed. But, right now, as you write, you have a vision of what is real or not within your universes. That's your canon right now. And, I think it's cool that you've allowed it to evolve. I'd imagine there is a tradeoff involved. On the one hand, it's great to evolve if you find ways to improve and tell more interesting stories. However, you probably want to maintain enough consistency so the readers can keep their bearings.

The point is, that is a given. It is not something that needs to be formally defined.
This gets back to my point that while the term "canon" probably was invented by those not involved in the process, it does actually describe the process. Having a term to refer to it is helpful for those who are not as in-tune with the process as you are. You see it as a given whereas those who aren't creators of a fictional universe need some framework and terminology to understand it.

Again, I totally agree that there's been too much importance placed on it. But, the concept is not without merit.

Mr Awe
 
A policy IS the default for how things work. That makes my point.

No. That's wrong. It is not a policy that land and water are different. Calling something land or water is not a declaration of policy, it is merely putting a label on something that already exists. The term "canon" is merely a term of criticism to refer to the original version of a work of fiction as distinct from its tie-ins. The idea that it's some formal "policy" that has to be declared by some imagined authority before it applies is one of the most pervasive myths in fandom, and it's almost entirely due to that one stupid Roddenberry memo that was really only in effect for two years (the interval between when it was issued and when he died).


I would agree with this. In my view, the most useful aspect of a canon is a common set of "facts" or "assumptions". For example, if you're discussing why the Enterprise didn't beam the crew up in such and such situation, it would be fair to say because the shields were up and we know that makes it impossible. Or, why did a character react a certain way? Because we know a certain event happened in the character's past. That sort of thing.

No. This is the other thing fans always get wrong. You're talking about continuity. Canon is not a synonym for continuity, though they tend to overlap. The canon is the core work. It has a continuity -- usually. Some canons have less continuity than others, e.g. Doctor Who or Marvel Comics (a canon that's extremely flexible about chronological continuity and other details that are retconned over time).


Settle down. I didn't mean it as any slight. Just that you have a specific perspective on this. Although, I'd bet that when writing tie-ins, you're required to be consistent to some extent with something that is equivalent to the "official canon."

Yes, obviously, but no official entity has to invoke "canon" as a magic word before it applies. Fans obsess over the label "canon" as if it were some magic fetish, but creators rarely use it, because they don't need to -- except when they're trying to explain the difference between canon and apocrypha to fans who have trouble understanding it. It's simply a given that the core work is the core work and that our job is to stay consistent with it. That was true long before people started using the word "canon" routinely to describe that idea.
 
No. That's wrong. It is not a policy that land and water are different. Calling something land or water is not a declaration of policy,
I'm not talking about land and water. Right? I'm talking about a creative policy. The ST TV writers/production are expected to be reasonably consistent with the TV universe but not expected to be consistent with the novels. That's a creative policy.

No. This is the other thing fans always get wrong. You're talking about continuity. Canon is not a synonym for continuity, though they tend to overlap. The canon is the core work. It has a continuity -- usually. Some canons have less continuity than others, e.g. Doctor Who or Marvel Comics (a canon that's extremely flexible about chronological continuity and other details that are retconned over time).
Yes, I was referring to canon. However, canon and continuity are absolutely related. Canon helps you maintain continuity. Although, if the canon changes (take your own work as an example) then continuity suffers. Very straightforward.

Mr Awe
 
On another topic, I just finished The Time Monster. It was an ok story, certainly better then The Mutants. The Master was as good as always, same with the regular cast. The story was mostly interesting, although I like the idea of Chronos more then the giant white chicken it spent most of its time as. I think the story really kind of drops in quality when they go to Atlantis. The whole society, as shown in this story, was fairly boring. Much like a lot of six parters, I think dropping two episodes worth of material (in this case all the Atlantis stuff) would have made for a better story. Still, overall it was decent.

I can't help but see "The Time Monster" as a big missed opportunity to bring back Liz Shaw for a guest appearance. I think she should have been one of the Master's assistants. It would neatly tie into both her return to Cambridge during the gap between Seasons 7 & 8 and the fact that the Master didn't show up until after she left, so she would of course have no idea who he was or what he looked like. *Sigh* Oh well.

I think this season started well with two solid stories (The Ribos Operation and The Pirate Planet). It then had a boring story (The Stones of Blood), then what is, to me, the third (or maybe fourth) worst 4th Doctor serial (The Androids of Tara). after that was two more boring stories (The Power of Kroll and The Armageddon Factor).

I need to re-watch the Key to Time season. That was my first real excursion into Doctor Who (although the first 2 stories that I ever saw were "Spearhead from Space" & "The Robots of Death"). The early bickering between the Doctor & Romana was what ultimately made me fall in love with the series. But I haven't properly watched any of those stories since I first saw them in 2004.

I recall really liking "The Ribos Operation," "The Pirate Planet," & "The Androids of Tara." "The Stones of Blood" had some decent bits, particularly with K-9 but was otherwise kinda dull. "The Power of Kroll" seemed like the worst at the time but I suspect I'd like it more now since I think it's a decent execution of the classic series formula. "The Armageddon Factor" was an interesting idea dragged out far too long and the end of the season-long Key to Time arc felt far too abrupt.

Although, I'd bet that when writing tie-ins, you're required to be consistent to some extent with something that is equivalent to the "official canon." For example, if you're writing a ST novel, you're not allowed to do something major that violates the TV canon.

On the other hand, when writing a tie-in novel, how strict are they about making sure that you don't contradict the other tie-in novels?
 
When I decided to start seriously getting into Doctor Who, the first video I bought was The Stones of Blood, which convinced me to buy a lot more. So I rather like the Key to Time series.

Meanwhile, I'm watching the colour animated version of Power of the Daleks. I wouldn't mind at all if more missing stories get this kind of treatment. (I know individual parts of The Invasion and several others have been animated, but this is the first time a story with no surviving parts has been completely animated.)
 
On the other hand, when writing a tie-in novel, how strict are they about making sure that you don't contradict the other tie-in novels?

Depends on the franchise and the editorial policy. Generally, continuity between different tie-ins is optional. Star Trek tie-ins have gone through a lot of phases. At first, they had no continuity except in the case of sequels by the same authors. Then a loose inter-novel continuity formed to a degree in the mid- to late '80s. But then that Roddenberry memo happened and Richard Arnold started imposing a zero-continuity policy on the tie-ins -- and even though he was kicked out in '91, the novels didn't really start developing a continuity again until the late '90s, though mainly from 2000 onward. And even so, it's still not mandatory; most books are in the "novelverse" but there have been plenty of exceptions.

Otherwise, I've seen tie-ins that had strong continuity (like Star Wars and the Doctor Who New/Missing Adventures), tie-ins with zero continuity, and everything in between. It's pretty rare for the actual studio to care about anything beyond consistency with canon. Though it's getting more common these days for tie-ins to be consistent with each other and even to be nominally canonical.
 
On the other hand, when writing a tie-in novel, how strict are they about making sure that you don't contradict the other tie-in novels?
Exactly. That's all part of the creative decisions that were made and link back to a concept of a canon. Episodes and novels are consistent with what has appeared on screen. Episodes don't need to be consistent with novels. Novels don't need to be consistent with other novels. In other words, screen content is considered "official," or canon.
 
In other words, screen content is considered "official," or canon.

Those are not synonyms. Non-canonical tie-ins are official too. Calling a work of fiction official means that it is approved to exist by the owners of the copyright on the property. It's not about the content of the work, it's about its legal status. Fanfiction is not official, because it's made without the involvement or formal approval of the copyright owner. Licensed tie-in fiction, while non-canonical, is official, because the copyright owner commissions and approves it, puts their logo on it, and gets a cut of the profit from it. It's a business-related category rather than a content-related one. For comparison, licensed merchandise like action figures and Hallmark Christmas ornaments and LEGO sets are also official, in that they have the studio's approval and bear their logo, but nobody would call them canonical. And legitimate DVD releases are official while bootlegs are unofficial, even though they have the same content.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top