You're the one who makes the damn canon arguments. She's canonical, until told on-screen otherwise.
Last Classic Who Story you watched
- Thread starter Pindar
- Start date
That's not how it works. She's non-canonical until told on-screen otherwise. Even then, it doesn't legitimize her Big Finish stories, it would just confirm her existence. Its just like how the 8th Doctor spouting off some names in Night of the Doctor added characters with those names to canon, but no specific BF adventures or even what the characters look like or what their history with the Doctor is.
I just finished The Armageddon Factor. The Key to Time season goes out with a fairly boring, overly long whimper. There were a few interesting ideas, but in the end it was, yet again, another six parter that was easily two parts too long. It also had really lame villains (The Shadow and that Marshal). The very end was an ok twist (the "white guardian" having been the Black Guardian the whole time), but that's about it. I watched the documentary about the Graham Williams era on The Ribos Operation DVD, so I already knew about the randomizer, and its such a stupid idea.
I think this season started well with two solid stories (The Ribos Operation and The Pirate Planet). It then had a boring story (The Stones of Blood), then what is, to me, the third (or maybe fourth) worst 4th Doctor serial (The Androids of Tara). after that was two more boring stories (The Power of Kroll and The Armageddon Factor). The Key to Time season was a good idea, but most of the stories were just mediocre to bad. The one good thing I can say about the whole season is that I think that Romana is a good companion, and that The Doctor, Romana and K9 were good even in the bad stories.
The next season for the 4th Doctor has my most hated 4th Doctor serial (The City of Death, although while its my most hated I'll admit that The Android Invasion and maybe The Robots of Death are probably worse), so I'm not going right into it (I do have a lot of the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 5th Doctor's eras to watch). Actually, I think my next story will be Scream of Shalka, and I'll probably post about it here since it is an official production (even if non-canon) and it is pre-2005, so I'd say it counts as Classic Who.
I think this season started well with two solid stories (The Ribos Operation and The Pirate Planet). It then had a boring story (The Stones of Blood), then what is, to me, the third (or maybe fourth) worst 4th Doctor serial (The Androids of Tara). after that was two more boring stories (The Power of Kroll and The Armageddon Factor). The Key to Time season was a good idea, but most of the stories were just mediocre to bad. The one good thing I can say about the whole season is that I think that Romana is a good companion, and that The Doctor, Romana and K9 were good even in the bad stories.
The next season for the 4th Doctor has my most hated 4th Doctor serial (The City of Death, although while its my most hated I'll admit that The Android Invasion and maybe The Robots of Death are probably worse), so I'm not going right into it (I do have a lot of the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 5th Doctor's eras to watch). Actually, I think my next story will be Scream of Shalka, and I'll probably post about it here since it is an official production (even if non-canon) and it is pre-2005, so I'd say it counts as Classic Who.
Thats precisely how it works with Doctor Who. This is not Star Trek. Everything counts.
Which specifically called out to Big Finish! It couldn't be clearer than that.
Fans obsess far more over "canon" than creators do. There is no formal "everything counts" policy. The BBC is just neutral about the status of the tie-ins -- which is the way it usually is for fictional franchises and their tie-ins, because actually making a formal declaration about it is the exception, not the rule. Naturally the creators draw on elements from the tie-ins when they feel like it, because it's derived from their property so they're entitled to, but they also contradict the tie-ins whenever it suits them. Which, again, is normal. None of this is actually real, and the creators of the fiction are more aware of that than anyone. They don't see tie-ins in terms of "real" vs. "unreal," they see them as potential source material to be mined for ideas if and when it's convenient. Only fans have the luxury of pretending there's some reality to any of this and playing mind games about what is or isn't part of that so-called reality. The actual creators are too busy making up stories.
You seem to be saying that "Everything is canon unless they say it isn't", when its the exact opposite. Nothing is canon unless its on TV, or if you want to stretch it an official BBC production. So, if the TV series mentions a BF adventure or character, it would then be canon in some form. But if they don't, its not. People using the other logic would probably have gone into NuWho thinking The Doctor was born as an adult out of a stupid loom, but that was so completely debunked I wonder if distancing themselves from the "Cartmel Masterplan" wasn't somewhere in the back of the minds of the writers of The Doctor's Daughter and A Good Man Go to War.
In almost no franchise is "everything canon unless they dispute it". Now, if its a tightly controlled franchise like SW where the EU stuff is all pre-approved and, especially in the new canon, connected, then you could say its all canon unless its not. Even then, they make games that aren't canon to anything. But, they don't license stuff out without being involved in the creation of that stuff, its completely different then Doctor Who and Big finish. In Doctor Who, something is only canon if its an official BBC Production or brought up in one. So, no, The 6th Doctor didn't travel with some lame English teacher or wore a stupid blue coat, the 6th Doctor actually only had two companions, The Doctor is not The Other and was born the same way a human is, there are no talking penguins in Doctor Who, we don't know of any adventures of The War Doctor except Day of the Doctor, the 7th Doctor came about because the 6th Doctor mysteriously regenerated when The Rani attacked (presumably by hitting his head on the console) and not because the 7th Doctor f^&king killed him before he was even born or because The Valeyard somehow survived and got involved with some shenanigans. , etc.
Its not a hard concept. If you want to know what's canon, watch the TV show. Now, you can have non canon stories in your head canon (like how I know Star Trek books have never been canon, but if I like one and it doesn't contradict something I might personally count it when thinking about things). But, that doesn't change the facts. Big Finish is just a licensee who have no effect on the franchise or canon. Whether you think that's a good thing or bad thing is up to you. I'm personally glad that what is basically licensed audio fanfiction doesn't effect canon, at least the TV show tries to hire good writers and has limits on the stupid things they can do (not that they always succeed, we've gotten some terrible NuWho episodes, but their standards are still higher then BF, which seems to release whatever garbage the people in charge think will sell).
I watched Scream of the Shalka. I found it disappointing. Richard E. Grant could be a great Doctor, but in this he's written as the most cowardly, miserable incarnation of the Doctor ever. He just whines and complains and tries to get out of helping people for almost all of the first 4 episodes. Even as someone who likes it when The Doctor can be a bit of a jerk (the 6th Doctor is my favorite Doctor), this was just terrible. He's like if the 11th Doctor from The Snowmen was even more of a miserable bastard, while also being a whiny coward. It brought the whole story down. It didn't help that the human characters were both written and performed poorly in most cases (the UNIT commander putting in probably the only good performance for a human character, which is kind of compensated for by his terrible second in command).
Richard E. Grant did the best he could with the material when it comes to his performance, but he couldn't elevate the writing. The villains could have been ok, but their screeching was beyond obnoxious, and they were really just kind of a standard alien invader. I did like a few things about the story. Even though we didn't see much of it, the TARDIS interior, with a huge spiral staircase, looked interesting. Also, having The Master as some kind of android could be an interesting story element. Besides that, though, Scream of the Shalka is a mediocre story done poorly.
Richard E. Grant did the best he could with the material when it comes to his performance, but he couldn't elevate the writing. The villains could have been ok, but their screeching was beyond obnoxious, and they were really just kind of a standard alien invader. I did like a few things about the story. Even though we didn't see much of it, the TARDIS interior, with a huge spiral staircase, looked interesting. Also, having The Master as some kind of android could be an interesting story element. Besides that, though, Scream of the Shalka is a mediocre story done poorly.
In your point towards cannon I would agree with you, the TV show has never made any mention of Big Finish and thats unlikely to change, so strictly speaking it isn't cannon. And I don't think it matters anyway.
But why are you so insulting of work that happens to been made for audio, now I don't know what your beef with Big Finish is and I am not saying its all of amazing quality because there are some duds among its vast catalogue but they have produced some very good audio stories. So it's not garbage and that lame english teacher was a good character well played my Maggie Stables who passed away couple of years ago. I'm saying this as I've listened to several of the stories with her in it, have you or perhaps you've just read a summery and formed your usual kind of opinion based on your assumptions?
You shouldn't be so insulting dismissive of things you haven't listened/watched to.
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I've never liked Big Finish, but I've probably gotten more angry with them from arguments with huge BF fans online. Honestly, if the BF fans didn't try to pretend it was canon, I wouldn't even mention BF. It would be as far from my mind as all the other Doctor Who fanfiction if a small group of people didn't try to call it canon. Its when people try to act like their fanfiction is canon in conversations about actual DW stuff that irritates me, especially when its so terrible.
As for the lame English teacher, I have nothing against the actress. I have no idea who she is. The only non-canon 6th Doctor companions who I've heard stories with are Charley, Constance and Flip (since I have the 6th Doctor: The Last Adventure set). Lame English teacher is just a terrible idea, combined with reading summaries of a few things and just generally disliking BF's treatment of the 6th Doctor has her be the first thing I tend to think of when it comes to bad BF 6th Doctor stuff. The 6th Doctor is my favorite Doctor. He had a rough enough time on TV, so having people try to bring up the BF stuff with him is really what turned my disdain toward Big Finish into outright hatred.
In the end, lame english teacher might only be equally as bad as characters like Charley, Constance, talking penguin, etc as opposed to being worse. I just single her out because I barely remember Constance, didn't even remember Flip existed until I looked on the DW wiki as I was typing this post and Charley is more of a terrible 8th Doctor companion the 6th Doctor companion from what I've read. I'm more pissed at stuff like the stupid blueberry coat and the terrible stories trying to be shoved into canon by BF fans then I am annoyed at lame english teacher specifically. She's just an easy thing to reference when talking about BF stuff.
It almost sounds as if you don't like Big Finish because of the 6th Doctor boxset, how fan's can be overzealous in promoting it as canon and not just fanfiction in your words (calling it fanfiction is simply wrong) and reading summaries. But I'd imagine you've already had long conversations about Big Finish so I will leave it there.
Anyway out of curiosity what 1st and 2nd Doctor stories do you have to watch?
Anyway out of curiosity what 1st and 2nd Doctor stories do you have to watch?
Your disdain for BF is irrelevant to BBC's stance towards canon. Yes, TV comes first, and always will. But since its return, there has been concentrated effort not to directly contradict works made by BF and BBC towards one another - something Moffat admitted in an issue of Doctor Who Magazine. Hell, he even admitted earlier than that, that he wrote Eight's final scene with the intent of promoting Big Finish towards the general public (whatever). I'm not saying that everyone should adhere to BF if they don't follow it - but the fact is, the people who have run NuWho thus far did not ignore BF, and have in fact supported it. RTD even called one of the two audios with "the talking Penguin" as one of the greatest stories in "any medium". The other such story, Spare Parts, he used as a template for the return of the Cybermen in season two, crediting Marc Platt (writer of theBF play) in the end for the inspiration.
Bottom line, you hate BF. I don't. And lots of fans feel the same as I do, and even view Six through the lens of BF's improvement, including the actor who portrayed him for all those years. Respect that at least.
Bottom line, you hate BF. I don't. And lots of fans feel the same as I do, and even view Six through the lens of BF's improvement, including the actor who portrayed him for all those years. Respect that at least.
I keep a list of all the Classic Who serials I still need to watch. For the first two Doctors, I have to watch (including missing stories):
-First Doctor--
004 Marco Polo
005 The Key of Marinus
008 The Reign of Terror
009 Planet of the Giants
011 The Rescue
012 The Romans
013 The Web Planet
014 The Crusade
015 The Space Museum
016 The Chase
018 Galaxy 4
019 Mission to the Unknown
020 The Myth Makers
021 The Dalek's Master Plan
022 The Massacre of St Bartholomew's Eve
023 The Ark
025 The Gunfighters
026 The Savages
027 The War Machines
028 The Smugglers
--Second Doctor--
031 The Highlanders
032 The Underwater Menace
033 The Moonbase
034 The Macra Terror
035 The Faceless Ones
036 The Evil of the Daleks
039 The Ice Warriors
042 Fury from the Deep
043 The Wheel in Space
044 The Dominators
046 The Invasion
047 The Krotons
048 The Seeds of Death
049 The Space Pirates
050 The War Games
Speaking of the topic of this thread, I just started The Visitation. I'm only one episode in so far, and its ok. It does make me wish we'd see Tegan actually leave, though
I don't hate her or anything, but I'm not a huge fan. The aliens in this episode have an interesting design, hopefully they'll be interesting as characters. I like Colin Baker a lot, but I don't really care what his opinion on BF is. I'm glad he's getting paid for Doctor Who work, especially since the actual show screwed him over, but his opinion on BF material is irrelevant to me. BF didn't improve the 6th Doctor, they did more damage to the character then anything the TV show ever did (and I'm including The Doctor choking Peri in that statement). In the end its noncanon and doesn't count, but as one of the seemingly few people who count the 6th Doctor as their favorite Doctor its annoying when people bring up the terrible things BF did with what I consider their "6th Doctor in name only". That is not, and never will be, a canon version of the 6th Doctor. Colin Baker's Doctor had one costume (with a few variations of accessories), two companions and 11 serials. That is the complete 6th Doctor. Anything else is just garbage, and not connected to the actual character. Some people like the BF version, which is fine if they acknowledge that he's no more canon then Peter Cushing or Richard E Grant's versions of The Doctor.
As for the other thing, RTD invented Torchwood and wrote Love and Monsters. While i liked his era and him as a showrunner of DW, his opinion on good Doctor Who stories isn't exactly something I care about. The Cybermen two parter wasn't a story I was particularly impressed by, so I'm not surprised it was influenced by Big Finish. In the end though, if a writer had a story that contradicted BF, they would use it in a second if the showrunner liked it enough and wouldn't even stop to think about BF. Regardless of the bad taste of Doctor Who showrunners, as far as the show is concerned BF isn't a factor. They may not go out of their way to contradict it, but they'd do it in a second if they had a decent reason. Plus, we're getting a new showrunner, so who knows what his opinion of BF is. I'm betting he'll continue the normal staus quo of basically never mentioning it or referencing it, outside of one or two little pointless nods every few years.
Much like the rest of your post, a disrespectful and ignorantly biased post, highlighting your irrational distaste for BF. What they did was expand the character and broaden his characterization in exactly the way the showrunners thought they could do, but couldn't because JNT wasn't as interested in good writing as he was in event writing. And as such, saying that BF did damage on the character is both stupid and ignorant, because BF is more of a fan niche AND not as accessible as the TV show is to most people (certainly not in Greece, where audio dramas are not very well-known), and because you haven't actually experienced those stories. If anything else, you'd be pleased to know that his classic coat is far more prevalent, in overall stories than my favorite, the blue one (which extends to only two companions, really, retiring it after Charley).
In my opinion, the Six-Evelyn run of stories is, combined with the BBC and BF monthly ranges and specials, is the single best Doctor-Companion run from the '80's Doctors (I love Professor-Ace, but they have overextended it in BF, I think). The Doctor is post-Trial, bitter with the treatment he received from the Time Lords but still kicking, and also evolving as a kinder but not unsympathetic version via his beautifully written relationship with Dr. Evelyn, probably my favorite audio companion (and I have quite a few). And I can't recommend the Lost Stories range enough, because its exactly what you like: Stories from that era that were rejected because Trial of a Time Lord replaced season 23's material. The First Sontarans is the best Sontarans story outside The Time Warrior, full stop.
I guess this is as good a time to admit, that I largely prefer BF's treatment of the '80's Doctors over BBC's. Hindsight obviously helped BF a lot, but at the same time, I just think BF genuinely cared for the characters and the stories they'd be in, at least in the beginning. For me, Spare Parts is the best story for any Doctor from 5 to 12, full stop. Its one of my all-time DW favorite stories of all time (if I had a record player, I'd buy that vinyl) and the best showcase for the Fifth Doctor other than Caves of Androzani, utilizing what that story did for the character and making use for this story, showing him as helpless and desperate as he was in that one. Its amazing illustration of a man who, in this period in his life, really tried to be a quintessential gentleman but the universe didn't give a crap.But I digress. Overall, I will defend BF, because to me, they salvaged the 80's Doctors in a huge way, especially 5 and 6, and gave 8 a legitimate run for him to count, making his turn in Night an earned exit for him. I mean, lets not kid outselves, but 80's DW was, for the most part, a mess.
On the topic of the thread for a second, I finished The Visitation. It was boring and unimpressive, and I really don't have anything else to say.
I bet they only retired the blue coat because he had to be wearing it when he regenerated. As for BF "expanding and broadening his characterization", I completely disagree. What they almost certainly did is invent a new character voiced by Colin Baker, and pretend he's the 6th Doctor. They probably did it to "fix" him, even though he didn't need it. Sure, he had a bit of a rough start (although I liked most of that outside of the choking Peri bit), but by the Trial of a Timelord season his personality was solid and worked well. Character wise, he didn't need any tweaking at that point.
The 6th Doctor didn't need to be "kinder", by Trial of a Timelord he was basically perfect personality wise. He could be a bit grumpy and full of himself, but he was still a good guy and treated his friends well. I like that kind of jerkish/arrogant edge he has, that's part of why he's my favorite Doctor. He's a good guy with a bit of an ego and can be a bit prickly.If he's toned down from there he'd just be generic.
When it comes to his companions, of his two canon ones I like Peri, and not just because the only other choice is Mel. That said, even Mel is better then an elderly english teacher. Or a talking penguin, or a nurse (I think that's what Constance is, a WWII era nurse) or whatever Charley and Flip are.
As for the "lost stories" range, its still Big Finish. Being supposedly based on TV scripts or ideas doesn't make them TV stories, and I'm sure BF still did them in its own "style". I don't know if they bothered to get one of the 6th Doctor's actual companions for the stories, of if they just grafted one of the BF ones into an old story/idea, but regardless there is no difference between a "lost story" and any other BF production as far as I'm concerned.
It was a mess, but it gave me my favorite Doctor so its hard to feel too badly toward it. Then again, it also gave me my least favorite Doctor (7th) and what is basically my most loathed Classic Who story (The Greatest Show in the Galaxy). But, regardless of that, even 80s Who at its worst is still official Who, and inherently better then noncanon audio fanfiction like BF, at least in my opinion. I also don't think either the 5th or 6th Doctor needed to be salvaged. Their eras had problems, but both Doctor's were fine (the 6th being much better then the 5th in my opinion, but the 5th isn't bad, just a bit bland). If anything the 7th needed to be fixed, but that isn't something BF could do.
I don't think BF has ever cared about anything but making money anyway they can off the license, and maybe producing some stories the people in charge and certain writers really wanted to make, but for some reason didn't just publish them to a fanfiction site.
I bet they only retired the blue coat because he had to be wearing it when he regenerated. As for BF "expanding and broadening his characterization", I completely disagree. What they almost certainly did is invent a new character voiced by Colin Baker, and pretend he's the 6th Doctor. They probably did it to "fix" him, even though he didn't need it. Sure, he had a bit of a rough start (although I liked most of that outside of the choking Peri bit), but by the Trial of a Timelord season his personality was solid and worked well. Character wise, he didn't need any tweaking at that point.
The 6th Doctor didn't need to be "kinder", by Trial of a Timelord he was basically perfect personality wise. He could be a bit grumpy and full of himself, but he was still a good guy and treated his friends well. I like that kind of jerkish/arrogant edge he has, that's part of why he's my favorite Doctor. He's a good guy with a bit of an ego and can be a bit prickly.If he's toned down from there he'd just be generic.
When it comes to his companions, of his two canon ones I like Peri, and not just because the only other choice is Mel. That said, even Mel is better then an elderly english teacher. Or a talking penguin, or a nurse (I think that's what Constance is, a WWII era nurse) or whatever Charley and Flip are.
As for the "lost stories" range, its still Big Finish. Being supposedly based on TV scripts or ideas doesn't make them TV stories, and I'm sure BF still did them in its own "style". I don't know if they bothered to get one of the 6th Doctor's actual companions for the stories, of if they just grafted one of the BF ones into an old story/idea, but regardless there is no difference between a "lost story" and any other BF production as far as I'm concerned.
It was a mess, but it gave me my favorite Doctor so its hard to feel too badly toward it. Then again, it also gave me my least favorite Doctor (7th) and what is basically my most loathed Classic Who story (The Greatest Show in the Galaxy). But, regardless of that, even 80s Who at its worst is still official Who, and inherently better then noncanon audio fanfiction like BF, at least in my opinion. I also don't think either the 5th or 6th Doctor needed to be salvaged. Their eras had problems, but both Doctor's were fine (the 6th being much better then the 5th in my opinion, but the 5th isn't bad, just a bit bland). If anything the 7th needed to be fixed, but that isn't something BF could do.
I don't think BF has ever cared about anything but making money anyway they can off the license, and maybe producing some stories the people in charge and certain writers really wanted to make, but for some reason didn't just publish them to a fanfiction site.
And on that note, I'm done. You're clearly a jerk when it comes to BF, as you have a clear, uncultured bias against it. If you don't want to enjoy these stories its one thing, its another to converse with such vindictive hatred about it.
I mean, you clearly don't know what you're talking about! Plus, you insist on your canon mantra when its been disproven time and time again. If you want to believe that, fine. But don't stress your opinion as fact, because its not how it works.
How can you say one character is better then another when you haven't listened to them as far as I know?
Also using the analogy that as its not on the TV screen then therefore its fan fiction, then therefore SW books must also be prettty similar yes?
Also you seem to take the whole cannon far too seriously, simply because its on Audio doesn't automatically say its bad. Your point of view has no logic to it and heaps of undeserved hatred.
You have never proven its canon, and it isn't. As for BF, I'd prefer to ignore them. To me its fanfiction that somehow got the Doctor Who license so they can legally sell it. Its people that bring it up in conversations about legitimate Doctor Who stuff that start the arguments, not me. BF is no more canon then those terrible New Adventure books, the only difference is that the show has gone out of its way to decanonise a lot of that stuff (or at least the stupid Cartmel masterplan elements of those books).
As for "don't want to enjoy it", you make it seem like I am actively trying to hate BF, which is ridiculous. Heck, I don't even hate the 6th Doctor: The Last Adventure set I have, I don't regret buying it and will certainly listen to it again. But I don't pretend its canon, its just a decent (well, mostly decent outside of that mediocre werewolf story) set of audio fanfiction starring Colin Baker. If it wasn't for all the arguments with BF fans, I'd be more "uncaring" then irritated by BF in general.
I've listened to Charley, Constance and Flip. As for the talking penguin and lame english teacher, I don't have to listen to them talk to have an opinion of them. Plus, in the end, canon is always above noncanon, and even removing canon bad TV stuff is better then BF.
Also, SW doesn't work the same way. SW books are done with the license holder, especially now with the story group but even under Lucas they did work together. BF does whatever they want (within limits obviously, although I'd say they're given too much leeway). The BBC isn't involved with BF the way Lucasfilm and then Disney/Lucasfilm are involved with SW material.
As for canon, like I said I'm not the one that brings BF up. Its other people pretending its canon that bring it up in conversations about official Who stuff and start an argument. I wouldn't mention them at all if other people didn't bring it up first. It being non canon means it is completely irrelevant to the official Who stuff, which is what I care about.
If you're going to keep going on about canon -- citation needed. Your opinion is irrelevant outside your head. If you can't back up your idea of canon with quotes from, say, John Nathan-Turner, Russell T Davies, and Steven Moffat, you're effectively making stuff up.
So, I watched The Ice Warriors the other day, the DVD version with the two missing episodes animated. I seem to recall finding the old VHS release a bit of a slog, but I enjoyed it more this time around. It follows the standard Troughton era formula, sure, but that can be pretty entertaining, even when you've got a bit of a runaround to stretch the show out over six parts. Troughton's always fun, Jamie's a good companion, and Victoria does better than I remembered -- she's not just a screamer. Personal nostalgia tidbit: the Target novelization of this story was the first Doctor Who book I ever read, back before I started watching the show regularly.
So, I watched The Ice Warriors the other day, the DVD version with the two missing episodes animated. I seem to recall finding the old VHS release a bit of a slog, but I enjoyed it more this time around. It follows the standard Troughton era formula, sure, but that can be pretty entertaining, even when you've got a bit of a runaround to stretch the show out over six parts. Troughton's always fun, Jamie's a good companion, and Victoria does better than I remembered -- she's not just a screamer. Personal nostalgia tidbit: the Target novelization of this story was the first Doctor Who book I ever read, back before I started watching the show regularly.
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