Black Vulcan

[jmidnight_99]

Why do we have to be left-wingers or racial motivated?
We just take the facts for what they are and try to find an explanation tat make sense to us within the rules of the Star Trek universe. You are the one that doubt the given facts. We see dark skinned and 'asian' Vulcans, so they obviously either exist or have to question the whole concept that the alien shown resemble this given depiction. That's what we are doing. It seems unreasonable to cherry pick what to accept as given and what not.

the argument has little to do with Asian or black Vulcans. The argument is that IF we found another humanoid species and IF that species looked like white people, would there be a dark-skinned equivalent from the same planet.

It has nothing to do with Tuvok, who is my favorite Vulcan, by far. My favorite Tuvok scene:

Tom Paris: If you wanted to, you could recreate Vulcan in your quarters with that system.
Tuvok: Why would I want to?
Tom Paris: A little taste of home in the Delta Quadrant? Think about it - springtime on the shores of Lake Yuron!
Tuvok: I require a desk and a bed, nothing more.
Tom Paris: You're missing the point.
Tuvok: No doubt.
Tom Paris: These people have been traveling for 400 years. They've learned a thing or two about living comfortably.
Tuvok: Our systems are more than adequate.
Tom Paris: (Exasperated) Ah! I give up!
Chakotay: After only two minutes? Tuvok, how do you do it?
Tuvok: I wait until his own illogic overwhelms him.

Here's my second favorite scene, but Tuvok isn't in it:

EMH-SEVEN: Ensign.
KIM: Ow, argh, ow. Where the hell have you been? I had to fake a seizure before the guard would let me see you.
EMH-SEVEN: Calm down. Seven and I have been making progress.
(The EMH is downloaded from Seven's systems into the mobile emitter.)
KIM: Did you get a look at their computer?
SEVEN: During the one brief moment when the Doctor wasn't indulging himself.
EMH: I think I've shown considerable restraint, under the circumstances.
SEVEN: Kissing Ranek on the bridge. Is that your idea of restraint?
KIM: Kissing?
EMH: Not that it's any of your business, but if you must know Ranek kissed me.
SEVEN: And the massage you got from Lieutenant Jaryn?
EMH: Entirely therapeutic!
SEVEN: You became sexually aroused in my body!

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Spare me your conjecture and back-pedaling.

First, you don't know if the number of aliens shown (which are humanoid) constitutes a vast minority of sentient aliens in general, that are not shown. So your argument is moot.

You don't know what an alien will look like. If there were aliens who looked like humanoids, which, since we look humanoid is NOT the impossibility you seem to think it is, it's astronomical that there would be white, black and Asian ones on another planet. And you sure don't know what is or isn't plausible sitting here on this rock worrying about Hillary and Don. Curve that.

You don't have a clue what wavelengths of light will or will not reach the surface of an alien planet. Among other things, this would be a function of the type of radiation emitted by the star, the content of the atmosphere, the location on the planet, and the angle of rotation of the planet.

What is the point of this conversation. There would be no black Vulcans. If anything, there would be greener ones.

While I agree with some of the above (the idea that human skull structure still universally maps to 3+ distinct types by 100yrs+ of space travel is IMO unlikely and there is no reason why any alien race would do so), I disagree that Vulcans should have "shades of green" (after all, humans don't darken on the pink/red tones in hotter climes they get browner). Furthermore, even if I accept that Vulcans only come in one "type", the fairly pale European "type" that appears to be default is illogical given Vulcan environmental factors, instead they should be either or both of Arab or black (both found in desert-type environments on Earth).

 

[Nyotarules]

Sun exposure is a relative thing. The darker Vulcans come from the areas that get more sun exposure. The lighter ones from the areas that get less, even though that exposure is more than we'd typically get on Earth even in areas that, here at least, produce darker humans.

I do wonder about racial diversity in races like the Klingons who have the whole warrior thing going on. One would think that they would have exterminated "the other" before reaching spaceflight status. But they're still dealing with the "smooth vs. bumpy" thing.

Maybe the only species to have a history of placing its own species in 'an other' category are humans.
The 'white looking' Vulcans should be as 'white' as a human from the Middle East with a green tinge. The pale ones like Spock get their paleness from their human white mothers or fathers.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Maybe the only species to have a history of placing its own species in an 'an other' category are humans.
The 'white looking' Vulcans should be as 'white' as a human from the Middle East with a green tinge. The pale ones like Spock get their paleness from their human white mothers or fathers.

That would make a certain amount of sense (though thats not really what we've on screen).

 

[Nyotarules]

While Vulcan might lack the large bodies of water of Earth, there could be vast sections of desert which are extremely difficult to cross, impassible mountain ranges, these could lead to separate racial groups.

Also religious and social traditions that dictated which group you would marry within and have children with.

Tuvok's ancestors and Spock's ancestors wouldn't inter-marry.

Surak's reforms were over 2000 Earth years ago in the ST universe. Tuvok's and Spock's ancestors would not have our present day racial hangups. A civilisation that has nuclear weapons during Earth 1.A.D time, is probably like 20th century earth when it comes to technology and travel. Actually they would be even more advanced since some of them left the planet and founded a new 'race'. Vulcan seems to be more clan based, if you take Spock's World as canon. If the Vulcans were practising IDIC after Surak, racial 'splits' would be considered illogical.

 

[Nyotarules]

That would make a certain amount of sense (though thats not really what we've on screen).

Perhaps the in universe reason is not all of Vulcan is desert like, maybe the Northern part of the planet is like Southern Europe or the Americas? The real life reason, well perhaps the character of Spock and his background was still underdeveloped when The Cage was produced.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Wussies afraid of sun burn take a pill every month.

 

[Sci]

Spare me your conjecture and back-pedaling.

I haven't back-pedaled anything, you just don't have reading comprehension.

First, you don't know if the number of aliens shown (which are humanoid) constitutes a vast minority of sentient aliens in general, that are not shown. So your argument is moot.

You don't know what an alien will look like. If there were aliens who looked like humanoids, which, since we look humanoid is NOT the impossibility you seem to think it is, it's astronomical that there would be white, black and Asian ones on another planet. And you sure don't know what is or isn't plausible sitting here on this rock worrying about Hillary and Don. Curve that.

You don't have a clue what wavelengths of light will or will not reach the surface of an alien planet. Among other things, this would be a function of the type of radiation emitted by the star, the content of the atmosphere, the location on the planet, and the angle of rotation of the planet.

What is the point of this conversation. There would be no black Vulcans. If anything, there would be greener ones.

Alright, alright, I get it: You don't like the idea that people from a desert would be brown.

 

[Logicpuzzle]

the argument has little to do with Asian or black Vulcans. The argument is that IF we found another humanoid species and IF that species looked like white people, would there be a dark-skinned equivalent from the same planet.

It has nothing to do with Tuvok, who is my favorite Vulcan, by far. My favorite Tuvok scene:

Tom Paris: If you wanted to, you could recreate Vulcan in your quarters with that system.
Tuvok: Why would I want to?
Tom Paris: A little taste of home in the Delta Quadrant? Think about it - springtime on the shores of Lake Yuron!
Tuvok: I require a desk and a bed, nothing more.
Tom Paris: You're missing the point.
Tuvok: No doubt.
Tom Paris: These people have been traveling for 400 years. They've learned a thing or two about living comfortably.
Tuvok: Our systems are more than adequate.
Tom Paris: (Exasperated) Ah! I give up!
Chakotay: After only two minutes? Tuvok, how do you do it?
Tuvok: I wait until his own illogic overwhelms him.

Here's my second favorite scene, but Tuvok isn't in it:

EMH-SEVEN: Ensign.
KIM: Ow, argh, ow. Where the hell have you been? I had to fake a seizure before the guard would let me see you.
EMH-SEVEN: Calm down. Seven and I have been making progress.
(The EMH is downloaded from Seven's systems into the mobile emitter.)
KIM: Did you get a look at their computer?
SEVEN: During the one brief moment when the Doctor wasn't indulging himself.
EMH: I think I've shown considerable restraint, under the circumstances.
SEVEN: Kissing Ranek on the bridge. Is that your idea of restraint?
KIM: Kissing?
EMH: Not that it's any of your business, but if you must know Ranek kissed me.
SEVEN: And the massage you got from Lieutenant Jaryn?
EMH: Entirely therapeutic!
SEVEN: You became sexually aroused in my body!

First I never that anything about Tuvok, you do
You know the 'I have friends of that-or-that ethnic group' is never a good defense... Argue you point, don't make excuses.
My argument was that with all information we are given, it makes perfectly sense in the Star Trek universe, because many different alien races show this kind of phenotypes. So we have to assume that does variants are common to happen, arguable for the same reason the humanoid shape is happening again and again.

 

[Nyotarules]

If the Star Trek universe showed brown Andorians I could consider that some kind of genetic defect, in my head canon the Sarek type Vulcans have a genetic defect lol

 

[Guy Gardener]

Andoria is an ice planet.

The whole place is our North Pole.

The Anear are the weirdo's with odd pigmentation.

Their excuse being, I think that they never go up to the surface.

Albino and blind?

This interesting...

Based on Talla, Shran's daughter from "These Are the Voyages...", it has been speculated that hybrids of an Andorian and an Aenar would be a greenish color, perhaps explaining the greenish Andorian seen in TNG The Offspring.

Green, Blue and White.

It's a colour wheel!

Consistent hereditical pigmentation relies on being preindustrial and almost inbred.

Once mass transit and hats have been invented, it's only a matter of time until you can't figure out where anyone is from, from looking at other nearby people.

Seriously "hats".

The colour of our skin is because our families briefly spent 40 thousand years living inside the same 50 square kilometres, before anyone had invented shirts.

I am over simplifying things.

Sorry.

 

[jmidnight_99]

First I never that anything about Tuvok, you do
You know the 'I have friends of that-or-that ethnic group' is never a good defense... Argue you point, don't make excuses.
My argument was that with all information we are given, it makes perfectly sense in the Star Trek universe, because many different alien races show this kind of phenotypes. So we have to assume that does variants are common to happen, arguable for the same reason the humanoid shape is happening again and again.

There are no African Vulcans. Vulcan has no African continent.
I can make all the excuses I choose to make, whenever and wherever I choose to make them.
Your illogical thought processes (and it is illogical) makes no sense whatsoever. It is illogical to assume that because one set of humanoids contains light and dark skinned members, that any other set "probably" will. Tuvok would be disappointed, that is, if Tuvok could be disappointed.

 

[jmidnight_99]

I haven't back-pedaled anything, you just don't have reading comprehension.

Right.

Alright, alright, I get it: You don't like the idea that people from a desert would be brown.

No, just ones with green tinged skin and copper-based blood, living beneath a red sun on an alien planet with an unknown atmosphere. Forgive me for thinking they probably wouldn't wind up evolving to look like Tim Russ. Whatever passes for the precursor to melanin in a Vulcan would most likely oxidize greener rather than browner, so a darker skinned Vulcans would be greener, not browner. Or not exist at all.

 

[Sci]

No, just ones with green tinged skin and copper-based blood, living beneath a red sun

None of which changes the basic fact of biology that it would be better for a species that lacks fur covering their body to have darker skin in such an environment, in order to reflect most wavelengths of light off the body.

This is just basic biology here. Nothing exciting, nothing new. The evolutionary forces that drove Humans to develop dark skin in desert regions would apply to Vulcan, too.

on an alien planet with an unknown atmosphere.

Ain't that unknown; we've seen Humans breathe on Vulcan just fine numerous times.

Forgive me for thinking they probably wouldn't wind up evolving to look like Tim Russ.

They'd be more likely to wind up looking like Tim Russ than like Leonard Nimoy.

Whatever passes for the precursor to melanin in a Vulcan would most likely oxidize greener rather than browner, so a darker skinned Vulcans would be greener, not browner. Or not exist at all.

Hey, sure, I'm fine with arguing a darker-skinned Vulcan would be greener rather than browner.

But a lighter-skinned Vulcan would also be greener rather than pinker.

Neither white Vulcans nor black Vulcans are plausible. Yet you only argue against the latter and not the former.

 

[Logicpuzzle]

There are no African Vulcans. Vulcan has no African continent.
I can make all the excuses I choose to make, whenever and wherever I choose to make them.
Your illogical thought processes (and it is illogical) makes no sense whatsoever. It is illogical to assume that because one set of humanoids contains light and dark skinned members, that any other set "probably" will. Tuvok would be disappointed, that is, if Tuvok could be disappointed.

No, my arguments are perfectly logical.
Logic meant to deduce reasonable conclusions from the given facts, observations and former knowledge.
What do I observe?
I see in many episodes white, black, asian ect. phenotyped Vulcans, Romulans, Klingons, Bajorans and all those aliens of the week races.
I see hybrides of different races.
In the Star Trek universe we see extraordinary many humanoids.
What former knowledge do I have?
I know about basic genetics.
If species are able to interbreed, their genetic make-up need to be closely related.
There is a race of preservers, that had coded this humanoid shape into many evolution processes.
My conclusions:
It is easy for some genes to mutated in the way that those typical ethical markers appear that make them white, black, asian- looking. It naturally happens all over those 'preserved' races.

You on the other hand doubt the oberservation, because the theory you have to explain it doesn't fit.
It's like saying, we can't describe how a bumblebee flies with our knowledge about aeronautic, so they don't fly.
We see that they fly. That's a fact. Which means our normal explanation isn't correct or incomplete.
We see black Vulcans. That's a fact as well. So we have to find an explanation for this and not argue that our observation is wrong.

 

[jmidnight_99]

No, my arguments are perfectly logical.
Logic meant to deduce reasonable conclusions from the given facts, observations and former knowledge.
What do I observe?
I see in many episodes white, black, asian ect. phenotyped Vulcans, Romulans, Klingons, Bajorans and all those aliens of the week races.
I see hybrides of different races.
In the Star Trek universe we see extraordinary many humanoids.
What former knowledge do I have?
I know about basic genetics.
If species are able to interbreed, their genetic make-up need to be closely related.
There is a race of preservers, that had coded this humanoid shape into many evolution processes.
My conclusions:
It is easy for some genes to mutated in the way that those typical ethical markers appear that make them white, black, asian- looking. It naturally happens all over those 'preserved' races.

You on the other hand doubt the oberservation, because the theory you have to explain it doesn't fit.
It's like saying, we can't describe how a bumblebee flies with our knowledge about aeronautic, so they don't fly.
We see that they fly. That's a fact. Which means our normal explanation isn't correct or incomplete.
We see black Vulcans. That's a fact as well. So we have to find an explanation for this and not argue that our observation is wrong.

There are no African Vulcans.
You are as logical as Hillary, which is to say...
You obviously know nothing about genetics
and you are wasting my time with your long-winded illogical conclusions.
There are no African Vulcans.

 

[Nyotarules]

There are no European Vulcans either and yet Spock, Sarek, T'Pring, T'Pau and many other pale, Caucasian looking Vulcans exist.

 

[Logicpuzzle]

There are no African Vulcans.
You are as logical as Hillary, which is to say...
You obviously know nothing about genetics
and you are wasting my time with your long-winded illogical conclusions.
There are no African Vulcans.

I sure I know more about genetics than you do, but right now I start to believe you are a troll, because I refuse to believe that people are as incapable to process a logical argument or you are 15 which probably means the same as being a troll, most the time.
I never talked about African Vulcans (who would be Vulcans born and raised in Africa), but dark-skinned Vulcans, who we see in the Star Trek universe multiple times

 

[somebuddyX]

Maybe the people who made that duplicate Earth in "Miri" got bored and thought it would be neat to shove a duplicate Africa on Vulcan and that's where Tuvok comes from.

 

[Sci]

There are no European Vulcans either and yet Spock, Sarek, T'Pring, T'Pau and many other pale, Caucasian looking Vulcans exist.

That doesn't bother jmidnight_99 because he thinks light skin is the default setting or something.

Edited to add:

He also seems to be under the impression that you can only have dark brown skin if your recent (last couple hundred years) ancestors came from Africa ("There is no African continent on Vulcan!"), so I can only imagine that the existence of Indigenous Australians must confuse him. But there again, he doesn't seem to understand that race itself is just a cultural construct.