In the Pale Moonlight....

[elamigodemiamiga]

I think sisko did the right thing.
He realised it was a GRAVE situation.

Look at it this way. Say you were Churchill or FDR and you needed the Soviets to enter WWII, because if not Hitler could win. Wouldn't you do some.....underhandedness if it lent to the greater good???

Sisko isn't a monster. He's just more willing to break the rules, provided it gets the job done. Even more "moral" Captains like Picard did, he was even willing to fight the Borg and it took Lily to talk him out of it. Rules are meant to be broken anyhow.

 

[kkt]

I think you have that the wrong way around! Britain was in the war first among the big three, then the USSR, and last the USA. Anyway, yes, if I were Churchill and I desperately needed the USSR and the USA to enter the war... yes, damn straight I would, and so would any of the officers who were in a position to pull it off. They would feel some personal regret but not too much.

 

[elamigodemiamiga]

that's not the point...but then for a smart person you don't get loose points? ok.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

In The Pale Moonlight was the extreme scenario where the ends did justify the means.

 

[elamigodemiamiga]

In The Pale Moonlight was the extreme scenario where the ends did justify the means.

yes, it did. Which is my point. I don't get the hate that it's wrong.

 

[Voth commando1]

The dilemma in the episode is a false one-you either do dirty things or you face conquest and domination. There's no do A and get B or C but do A and ensure D doesn't happen.

I can't believe Sisko doesn't struggle to look his Romulan comrades during the war in the eye-knowing he lied, consorted with criminals and well other trained liars to get them to join a war that was never justified to them on their own interest.

It's more like the US and China go to war and the US has to launch a coup in say Australia to get Australian participation in the war.

How many Romulan body bags were there? Of Romulan nogs or Romulan widows and orphans? All so the federation could prevail or at least keep the pressure off?

 

[Nyotarules]

The dilemma in the episode is a false one-you either do dirty things or you face conquest and domination. There's no do A and get B or C but do A and ensure D doesn't happen.

I can't believe Sisko doesn't struggle to look his Romulan comrades during the war in the eye-knowing he lied, consorted with criminals and well other trained liars to get them to join a war that was never justified to them on their own interest.

It's more like the US and China go to war and the US has to launch a coup in say Australia to get Australian participation in the war.

How many Romulan body bags were there? Of Romulan nogs or Romulan widows and orphans? All so the federation could prevail or at least keep the pressure off?

The war was between the Alpha and Beta quadrant and the Dominion not just the Federation. Sisko knew the Dominion would not respect any non aggression pact with the Romulans. They used such pacts to buy time. The Romulan Empire was not going to live the life of Riley with the Dominion as satisfied neighbours once they conquered the quadrant. The Romulan body bag count would be higher unless they wanted to live as subjugated peoples under the Dominion.

 

[MacLeod]

The war was between the Alpha and Beta quadrant and the Dominion not just the Federation. Sisko knew the Dominion would not respect any non aggression pact with the Romulans. They used such pacts to buy time. The Romulan Empire was not going to live the life of Riley with the Dominion as satisfied neighbours once they conquered the quadrant. The Romulan body bag count would be higher unless they wanted to live as subjugated peoples under the Dominion.

Yep, sooner or later the war would have come to the Romulan's. The more the Dominion could divide the AQ powers the better the chance they had of victory. The Soviet's had a non-agression pact with Nazi Germany and we saw how that ended.

 

[LJones41]

Yep, sooner or later the war would have come to the Romulan's. The more the Dominion could divide the AQ powers the better the chance they had of victory. The Soviet's had a non-agression pact with Nazi Germany and we saw how that ended.

That doesn't really excuse what Sisko and Garak did.

 

[DonIago]

I have to admit, part of me likes to think the Romulans eventually found out what happened and all hell broke loose.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

The dilemma in the episode is a false one-you either do dirty things or you face conquest and domination. There's no do A and get B or C but do A and ensure D doesn't happen.

The choice was made before the opening credits. The episode is about the consequences of choices and the impact they have one's identity.

 

[Kor]

Sisko only expected some subterfuge. He didn't think Garak would kill Vreenak. But once the deed was done, what was he supposed to do about it?

Kor

 

[Bad Thoughts]

But once the deed was done, what was he supposed to do about it?

Lose his soul: such it the deal with the devil.

 

[Voth commando1]

I read one explanation that says Sisko didn't do it because he believed in federation ideals in fact he doesn't believe in federation ideals at all and this episode is when he realizes that. He did it for Jake's future and perhaps Bajor not because he genuinely cared about the federation itself as an idea.

Anyway though the whole deal is to get the romulans to support a war that at the time doesn't involve them and wasn't guaranteed to. Romulans died so the federation could retain its own existence and supremacy in the alpha/beta quadrants. And as I said earlier the war was never justified to the romulans on the romulans best interests-all of Sisko and Garak's actions were based solely on what was good for the federation.

#Romulanlivesdontmatter

 

[Jetboogieman]

I read one explanation that says Sisko didn't do it because he believed in federation ideals in fact he doesn't believe in federation ideals at all and this episode is when he realizes that. He did it for Jake's future and perhaps Bajor not because he genuinely cared about the federation itself as an idea.

That's a theme DS9 touches on quite a bit though and alot of it came from Siskos experience with the Maquis.

"On Earth, there is no poverty, no crime, no war. You look out the window of Starfleet Headquarters and you see paradise. Well, it's easy to be a saint in paradise, but the Maquis do not live in paradise. Out there in the Demilitarized Zone, all the problems haven't been solved yet. Out there, there are no saints — just people. Angry, scared, determined people who are going to do whatever it takes to survive, whether it meets with Federation approval or not!"

 

[Voth commando1]

That's a theme DS9 touches on quite a bit though and alot of it came from Siskos experience with the Maquis.

"On Earth, there is no poverty, no crime, no war. You look out the window of Starfleet Headquarters and you see paradise. Well, it's easy to be a saint in paradise, but the Maquis do not live in paradise. Out there in the Demilitarized Zone, all the problems haven't been solved yet. Out there, there are no saints — just people. Angry, scared, determined people who are going to do whatever it takes to survive, whether it meets with Federation approval or not!"

See that's exactly why I can't get behind the character the man is a cynic at heart. That may move a popular archetype in 21st century America but it isn't inspiring and doesn't cause people to strive for something more. Unlike Picard for example.

 

[Jetboogieman]

See that's exactly why I can't get behind the character the man is a cynic at heart. That may move a popular archetype in 21st century America but it isn't inspiring and doesn't cause people to strive for something more. Unlike Picard for example.

This is a little unfair to Sisko.

At the end of the day DS9 was different in its outlook because it faced fundamentally different scenarios than TNG did since you raised Picard and you cannot discount the fact that if we're going to use prime canon you run into a problem using Picard in this context: Journeys End and Insurrection.

In both instances, whichever direction you look at it, Picard in Journeys end accepted the ends justified the means to keep the peace with the Cardassians to evict and re-enact injustice against Native Americans again because he believed the ends justified the means and an order given is an order carried out, in Insurrection Picard became so cynical of Starfleet and the Federation Council (of which Admiral Dougherty was allegedly acting under orders from) that he disobeyed direct orders and launched an insurrection against a superior officer because the ends justified the means to protect the Baku.

Siskos actions were endorsed by Starfleet Command and so his weren't the only fingers on the trigger.

 

[Voth commando1]

This is a little unfair to Sisko.

At the end of the day DS9 was different in its outlook because it faced fundamentally different scenarios than TNG did since you raised Picard and you cannot discount the fact that if we're going to use prime canon you run into a problem using Picard in this context: Journeys End and Insurrection.

In both instances, whichever direction you look at it, Picard in Journeys end accepted the ends justified the means to keep the peace with the Cardassians to evict and re-enact injustice against Native Americans again because he believed the ends justified the means and an order given is an order carried out, in Insurrection Picard became so cynical of Starfleet and the Federation Council (of which Admiral Dougherty was allegedly acting under orders from) that he disobeyed direct orders and launched an insurrection against a superior officer because the ends justified the means to protect the Baku.

Siskos actions were endorsed by Starfleet Command and so his weren't the only fingers on the trigger.

Your mentioning movie Picard and Picard just before the Traveler ran off with Wesley on a glorious interdimenionsal journey. Anyway he didn't evacuate the natives for which he was complimented by the chief. Sisko is hardened soldier and is operating in a very difficult situation but sure all villains are too and so are anti-heros.

What I like about Picard is that he is a true believer-he genuinely wants an intergalactic happy federation with milk, cookies, and lest we forget root beer. Sisko at heart doesn't take that seriously. I will root for the man who believes in something more than his son's happiness and the safety of a forgotten, confused and oppressed people.

 

[kkt]

Sisko only expected some subterfuge. He didn't think Garak would kill Vreenak. But once the deed was done, what was he supposed to do about it?

Kor

Punch Garak in the face?

edits: Ok, more seriously. Sisko expected Garak to do whatever it takes to get Romulus into the war. If all it took was minor subterfuge, great. But if it took conspiracy, murder, anything, just get it done. That's the sort of agent Garak was, and that's why Sisko went to Garak, even if he tried to kid himself at first. Garak told Sisko so, at the end, when Sisko was punching him, and Sisko couldn't disagree.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Even if the Romulans found out about what happened I don't think it would have necessarily led to war. If they wanted to go to war anyway, sure, they would have used it as a pretense. If they knew though they were in no position to realistically challenge the Federation without separating out the Klingons it might make them think twice about trying to do the kind of stuff they did in TNG S3-4, thinking the Federation is willing to play that game right back.