Yup, and I referenced the Elton John song that uses him as a metaphor earlier.
HBO's "Westworld", starring Anthony Hopkins/produced by J.J. Abrams
- Thread starter Ensign_Redshirt
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And, while showrunners are also unreliable, they have said that we will never "see" Arnold in any traditional fashion. I think there is something else in the picture Ford shows Bernard, maybe even Arnold, but Bernard can't see it - which doesn't mean it's because Arnold looks like him. This may have come up here - I can't remember - but the one argument against the Bernard/Delores interviews being 30 years ago is that she is still wearing the rancher's daughter dress. Someone somewhere said they recalled it being said that Delores had played many roles. I'm not sure that is true - does anyone else remember? I know it was said she's the oldest host, and that she has been rebuilt many times, but I don't remember it being said that she had had many roles.
I've been thinking about Wyatt as well. What we do know is that Wyatt is an invention of Ford's. He is the centerpiece of the new narrative, which has been referred to as throwing all kinds of other stories off in the present. We see Ford upload Wyatt into Teddy, we see Teddy have flashbacks to his time with Wyatt after that - an eagle-eyed fan has noted that even though Teddy says Wyatt was his sergeant, it's actually Teddy wearing sergeant stripes and the person who appears to be Wyatt is wearing corporal stripes, so go figure that one out. Wyatt appears to me to be a tool in Ford's upcoming struggle with A) corporate, B) Maeve/ Delores/the hosts, C) Arnold. When Wyatt's group appeared, the other hosts were not able to shoot them. Teddy has been fundamentally altered in his quest to kill Wyatt. That's pretty much all I can remember that we know of him.
I've been thinking about Wyatt as well. What we do know is that Wyatt is an invention of Ford's. He is the centerpiece of the new narrative, which has been referred to as throwing all kinds of other stories off in the present. We see Ford upload Wyatt into Teddy, we see Teddy have flashbacks to his time with Wyatt after that - an eagle-eyed fan has noted that even though Teddy says Wyatt was his sergeant, it's actually Teddy wearing sergeant stripes and the person who appears to be Wyatt is wearing corporal stripes, so go figure that one out. Wyatt appears to me to be a tool in Ford's upcoming struggle with A) corporate, B) Maeve/ Delores/the hosts, C) Arnold. When Wyatt's group appeared, the other hosts were not able to shoot them. Teddy has been fundamentally altered in his quest to kill Wyatt. That's pretty much all I can remember that we know of him.
That's her office on the second level of the control room which is overlooking the dynamic hologram of the park. The moving landscape is the hologram.
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Of course. I saw both several times as a kid.
Why? Do you think that's what they do? Replacing world leaders?
Damn. The William /MiB theory looks pretty much confirmed. It's not that it's bad I had just hoped that something else , less obvious was going on.
Then again, Mr. Robots big season 1 twist was telegraphed from the first episode and the writers, knowing everybody would figure it out, wrote the reveal perfectly. Here's hoping WW is just as good.
Following on the Romeo and Juliet references, the MiB's wife suicides by pills. Will MiB kill himself in the end? Didn't William say his fiancée was named Juliet?
Edit: I'm thinking the massacre / suicide Dolores flashes back too is Arnold losing it. That would mean he is also the fortune teller she saw. Then timeline two is her and William at the church in her pants. Timeline 3 is her alone in the dress returning alone.
Then again, Mr. Robots big season 1 twist was telegraphed from the first episode and the writers, knowing everybody would figure it out, wrote the reveal perfectly. Here's hoping WW is just as good.
Following on the Romeo and Juliet references, the MiB's wife suicides by pills. Will MiB kill himself in the end? Didn't William say his fiancée was named Juliet?
Edit: I'm thinking the massacre / suicide Dolores flashes back too is Arnold losing it. That would mean he is also the fortune teller she saw. Then timeline two is her and William at the church in her pants. Timeline 3 is her alone in the dress returning alone.
"Wait, I need to waive my right to concussion lawsuits?"
"Don't worry, that just standard legal stuff, just sign it you'll be fine."
"Don't worry, that just standard legal stuff, just sign it you'll be fine."
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Yeah, my friend and I saw that in the theater and thought it was hilarious. Then when it came on TV we waited for it and... it was a little different.
Nope. There are/could be any number of explanations - all of them much more simple than "William = The Man in Black" - for the latter recognizing Talulah Riley's Host character.
Sure there are, it could still be a red herring, but the coincidences are really piling up, with the whole marriage thing and his wife's suicide.
Also, I'll have to watch it again, but didn't MiB not only recognize her but said he thought she'd be deactivated after what happened last time? I wasn't sure.
All The Man in Black says is "It's you. I thought they would've retired you by now", which tells us only that he recognized her and was expecting her to not still be active. Assuming that the line is confirmation of anything else is 'reaching'.
Anyway, if we're going to look at the evidence as presented, it's incumbent upon proponents of the "William = The Man in Black" theory to explain the following things:
1) Dolores clearly having been awakened by her father whispering "These violent delights have violent ends" to her in The Original and remaining so throughout all of her adventures with William thus far
2) Present-day Ford personally retrieving Dolores from Pariah in Contrapasso
3) Teddy and The Man in Black hearing a passing reference in Tromp L'oleill to the trouble in Pariah that was stirred up by William and Dolores in Contrapasso
4) Dolores and William finding the buried church steeple in this week's episode before the former starts 'spazzing out' and seeing the buried town in 3 different periods of time
6) The Man in Black only having learned of/discovered the Maze's existence within the past year (which is when he came back to the park and killed Maeve and her daughter) relative to the present-day setting of his current journey (as related by him in this week's episode) when we know that Dolores is actively seeking the Maze herself on her journey with William
Anyway, if we're going to look at the evidence as presented, it's incumbent upon proponents of the "William = The Man in Black" theory to explain the following things:
1) Dolores clearly having been awakened by her father whispering "These violent delights have violent ends" to her in The Original and remaining so throughout all of her adventures with William thus far
2) Present-day Ford personally retrieving Dolores from Pariah in Contrapasso
3) Teddy and The Man in Black hearing a passing reference in Tromp L'oleill to the trouble in Pariah that was stirred up by William and Dolores in Contrapasso
4) Dolores and William finding the buried church steeple in this week's episode before the former starts 'spazzing out' and seeing the buried town in 3 different periods of time
6) The Man in Black only having learned of/discovered the Maze's existence within the past year (which is when he came back to the park and killed Maeve and her daughter) relative to the present-day setting of his current journey (as related by him in this week's episode) when we know that Dolores is actively seeking the Maze herself on her journey with William
As I said I don't advocate for this theory as I don't like it but all of your below points do have responses to them - namely that you're assuming because one scene follows another they take place in the same time period, which is not necessarily the case, that the point of view character of the moment is reliable, which is definitely not the case, and that the overarching loops change, which is not necessarily the case.
1) Dolores' activation by her father is not necessarily the same timeline as her adventures with William. "Remember" is what the voice tells her in Sweetwater before she meets him. The argument here is that her travels with William are what she is meant to remember. Also note that there are three Dolores timeliness we are seeing here: The dress when the park opens (timeline 1), the pants with William when the original town is buried(timeline 2), and the dress alone when the original town is dug back up again (timeline 3). It would seem to me that, since ford's plot line involves the town and digging, the William timeline is in the middle and the "present timeline" is her in the dress alone coming back to the town. It is in this latter timeline that her Father activated her, and she is "remembering" her travels with William in ordering to remember her way to the town.
2) Unreliable narrators. Unreliable timelines. Cut in action. You see someone whipper to Dolores, then you cut to Ford. Dolores is in a mental timeline slip, she's following herself into the parade when she's deactivated. I believe it's probably timeline 3 Dolores we see talking to Ford, not timeline 2.
3) Pariah is a narrative loop. As long as that story is played out over and over again at least once every four weeks someone is going to be stealing stealing nitro from the union, and then Lawrence is going to steal it from the confederates. William, Logan, and Dolores are irrelevant to that story - they are merely the players for that loop.
4). Three timelines.
5). Dolores tells William she's looking for Arnold, not the maze. MiB knows about Arnold, and knows he's the key, and it's Arnold's secrets MiB wants to dig up.
I hope William and MiB aren't the same person. It just seems like every episode makes it more likely that they are. You're right, "pretty much confirmed" is too strong a term for the William/MiB theory though. The theory is further strengthened by more circumstantial evidence.
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Isn't the church in the old town of Dolores' memory the same church that we saw Arnold build when he first started working on the new narrative? If so, wouldn't that conclusively mean that William is not the Man in Black?
So sad to see Robert ordered Bernard to kill Elsie, too. I'm still hoping somehow Bernard overcame his programming and Elsie is still alive.
Considering the level of ease Robert keeps assuming erasing memories is endgame for a host, but Maeve's memories came back anyways, perhaps that means Bernard's memories will also return?
So sad to see Robert ordered Bernard to kill Elsie, too. I'm still hoping somehow Bernard overcame his programming and Elsie is still alive.
Considering the level of ease Robert keeps assuming erasing memories is endgame for a host, but Maeve's memories came back anyways, perhaps that means Bernard's memories will also return?
The theory is the church is in three timelines. One, the start of the park. Two, the town buried all you see is the steeple (with Dolores and William) and 3, the town unburied by Ford and Dolores arrived there alone.
Bernard's memories are already returning, that's how we know he killed Elsie since he flashed to it when Ford lied to him before the recent wipe
I like how you, after proclaiming for weeks that there was absolutely no way there were multiple timelines, are now completely ignoring that part and retroactively trying to make your stance all about the William In Black theory. Good luck with that.
The "William = The Man in Black" theory and the "multiple timelines" theory are the same theory.
