• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

What if our universe were a simulation?

As others have hinted, one can invoke the Simulation Hypothesis:
n 2003, philosopher Nick Bostrom proposed a trilemma that he called "the simulation argument". Despite the name, Bostrom's "simulation argument" does not directly argue that we live in a simulation; instead, Bostrom's trilemma argues that one of three unlikely-seeming propositions must be true. The trilemma points out that a technologically mature "posthuman" civilization would have enormous computing power; if even a tiny percentage of them were to run "ancestor simulations" (that is, "high-fidelity" simulations of ancestral life that would be indistinguishable from reality to the simulated ancestor), the total number of simulated ancestors, or "Sims", in the universe (or multiverse, if it exists) would greatly exceed the total number of actual ancestors. Therefore, at least one of the following three propositions is almost certainly true:
  • The fraction of human-level civilizations that reach a posthuman stage (that is, one capable of running high-fidelity ancestor simulations) is very close to zero.
  • The fraction of posthuman civilizations that are interested in running ancestor-simulations is very close to zero.
  • The fraction of all people with our kind of experiences that are living in a simulation is very close to one.
Bostrom goes on to use a type of anthropic reasoning to claim that, if the third proposition is the one of those three that is true, and almost all people with our kind of experiences live in simulations, then we are almost certainly living in a simulation.

My take on it all is similar to that of Slartibartfast:
Slartibartfast: Perhaps I'm old and tired, but I always think the chances of
finding out what really is going on are so absurdly remote that the only thing
to do is to say "Hang the sense of it" and just keep yourself occupied.
Science has achieved some wonderful things, I know, but I'd far rather be
happy than right any day.
Arthur Dent: And are you?
Slartibartfast: No. That's where it all falls down, of course.
-- The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams.

However its does seem that an experimental test for whether our Universe is a simulation might be possible under some assumptions about its nature:
Observable consequences of the hypothesis that the observed universe is a numerical simulation performed on a cubic space-time lattice or grid are explored. The simulation scenario is first motivated by extrapolating current trends in computational resource requirements for lattice QCD into the future. Using the historical development of lattice gauge theory technology as a guide, we assume that our universe is an early numerical simulation with unimproved Wilson fermion discretization and investigate potentially-observable consequences. Among the observables that are considered are the muon g-2 and the current differences between determinations of alpha, but the most stringent bound on the inverse lattice spacing of the universe, b^−1 > ~ 10^11 GeV, is derived from the high-energy cut off of the cosmic ray spectrum. The numerical simulation scenario could reveal itself in the distributions of the highest energy cosmic rays exhibiting a degree of rotational symmetry breaking that reflects the structure of the underlying lattice.
https://arxiv.org/abs/1210.1847 and also https://www.technologyreview.com/s/...reveal-the-universe-as-a-computer-simulation/

Of course, if only mind states were simulated, the test would not work. I assume simulation of minds would be much more tractable from a computational standpoint.
 
If our universe is a simulation, the designer is a pervert because of earth alone. We're like that folder you don't want your parents to find.
 
To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.
 
The BBC online has an interesting article on this subject:

http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20160901-we-might-live-in-a-computer-program-but-it-may-not-matter

The theoretical rules concerning the behaviour of supersymmetric particles in string theory appear to contain intrinsic error-correcting codes, but as no supersymmetric particles have yet been detected and the jury is still out on string theory, it's a little early to take this as evidence that we're part of a simulation.

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.
 
Last edited:
The informational Bekenstein bound for the human brain is approximately I = 2.6 x10^42 bits. This number represents the maximum information that is required to represent a typical human brain right down to the quantum level. The number of possible states of such a brain is therefore 2^I or approximately 10^(7.8 x 10^41). Although enormous, this number is not infinite and it represents all possible state configurations (including memory) for all possible data inputs. All the possible moments of all of our possible lives would be included.
 
Last edited:
The informational Bekenstein bound for the human brain is approximately I = 2.6 x10^42 bits. This number represents the maximum information that is required to represent a typical human brain right down to the quantum level. The number of possible states of such a brain is therefore 2^I or approximately 10^(7.8 x 10^41). Although enormous, this number is not infinite and it represents all possible state configurations (including memory) for all possible data inputs. All the possible moments of all of our possible lives would be included.


So you couldn't download a brain into a computer?
 
With current technology it isn't, but we don't know what future developments will occur. I don't think it's impossible to simulate a human mind. But the real question is whether a simulation of a mind is the same thing as the original mind. Is it the same mind, a copy or a program that simply behaves like that mind? But if the simulation is unable to tell the difference, does it really matter? It thinks, therefore it is.
 
With current technology it isn't, but we don't know what future developments will occur. I don't think it's impossible to simulate a human mind. But the real question is whether a simulation of a mind is the same thing as the original mind. Is it the same mind, a copy or a program that simply behaves like that mind? But if the simulation is unable to tell the difference, does it really matter? It thinks, therefore it is.


Good points. Thankyou AP
 
With current technology it isn't, but we don't know what future developments will occur. I don't think it's impossible to simulate a human mind. But the real question is whether a simulation of a mind is the same thing as the original mind. Is it the same mind, a copy or a program that simply behaves like that mind? But if the simulation is unable to tell the difference, does it really matter? It thinks, therefore it is.
If it were merely downloaded, it would be a copy-- even if it had consciousness, it would be a separate consciousness with a unique point of view (and in order to retain the same personality, the simulation would also have to simulate biology as well as abstract thought). In order for a human mind to migrate into a computer or android body, there would have to be uninterrupted continuity between the two before the original body shut down. And I don't think we know enough at this point to guarantee that even that would result in the continuation of the same person.
 
So you couldn't download a brain into a computer?
In a quantum computer, you could potentially emulate all possible states of the "brains" simultaneously because of quantum superposition.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_simulator

You don't even need to simulate time -- the device can implicitly include all possible Hamiltonians --time arises as an emergent property within the simulated brains. Of course, the device also simulates any quantum state that can arise within a similar enclosed volume containing the same mass, sentient or more likely not.

Such a device could simulate any life history (human, animal, or alien) as perceived by any brain whose size was small enough to be emulated -- for example, elephants, whales, and Neanderthals would require a larger device as their brains have a larger volume. Each simulated being would experience their life without being aware that their consciousness is running in a simulation nor that their various copies experience every possible life history.

Such a device might be used simply to emulate all possible consciousnesses or it might be designed to find the optimal solution for a problem or question.

There are enough atoms in the Earth (about 10^50) to build such a device using one atom per qubit and it's much smaller than the device that would be required to emulate all possible Universes -- the Bekenstein bound is much larger for our Universe, of course, but it only increases as the area (R^2) of the enclosed volume rather than the volume itself (R^3) as might naively be assumed.

ETA: Just a thought if you were thinking of building the device -- the maximum entropy solution for any given mass is a black hole and a black hole with the mass of about 1.5 kg will explode within a minute fraction of a second (2.8 x 10^-16 s) with a yield of 32 megatons of TNT. Just saying...
 
Last edited:
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top