Is Deep Space Nine racist?

[KelisThePoet]

Are the Klingons really racist? They are emphatically devoted to the Klingon way, but do they express the prejudice that their way is only available to those who share their biological race? I'm not being rhetorical with these questions. I may be forgetting clear examples of Klingon racism. But the only instance that comes to my mind of a Klingon expressing racial/species pride is Kor in "Errand of Mercy" suggesting that his species has an aggressive virtue the Organians lack, making him a tiger among sheep. And in that instance, Kor markedly shares the distinction with Kirk as a human; so while he may be demonstrating a racist/species-ist prejudice against Organians, it's not a species-ist prejudice exclusively for Klingons.

There is of course the fact that we don't see any non-Klingons in the Empire, but we don't see many non-humans in the Federation. In both cases, budgetary factors are at play, as well as a desire to make the stories legible by clearly marking who's who.

 

[Tallguy]

Sentient rights should be the term or something akin to that and human rights shouldn't really be in common usage at all. Opinion or not, Chekov sounds completely peculiar when he brings it up.

It's not an opinion. It's a quote.

And it's a dumb usage because it's only there as a setup to Azetbur's equally dumb reaction.

Chekhov's attitudes are always presented as being peculiarly provincial. He has a deep sense of Russian pride.

He's so provincial that he's quoting another country's Declaration of Independence. That Pavel.

 

[Paradise City]

It's not an opinion. It's a quote.

And it's a dumb usage because it's only there as a setup to Azetbur's equally dumb reaction.

It's a badly written attempt at some diplomatic/philosophical argument. Although I don't mind Azetbur's reaction personally. That she has a point but also lacks self awareness are the kind of reactions one does experience in political circles. I just wish it was set up in some other way than Chekov using language like human rights. A big part of being a Starfleet officers is that the officers are diplomats of a sort, schooled in the right language. Chekov doesn't have his allegedly provincial background to really hide behind here.

 

[Nyotarules]

Chekhov's attitudes are always presented as being peculiarly provincial. He has a deep sense of Russian pride. There's nothing wrong with being proud of one's heritage, but it is problematic that Chekhov is proud to be Russian, Scotty is proud to be Scottish, Spock is proud to be Vulcan, and Kirk (the markedly American captain) is proud to be . . . human. There are important exceptions ("The Omega Glory"), but too often in Star Trek, American is presented as human-standard and everything else is presented as a variation.

I think the instinctual response to this problem is to fill up the franchise with more aliens (which is okay) and more humans from other countries (which is better), but I think the best response would be to represent the Americans more particularly and diversely, so that they stop looking like Hollywood's monolithic standard against which all else compares. In this respect, Sulu was and remains an important reminder of the rich diversity found everywhere.

Considering the mass migration of this century and the last, under a Star Trek in universe United Earth set up you would expect more humans to born in parts of the planet their ancestors are not indigneous. E.g a brown skinned Jomo Kenyatta of China an examaple of real life present day China's close links to parts of Africa, a brown skinned Priti Patel of Canada, a pale skinned Jane Smith of South Africa. In the latest comics there is an American born Romulan. It is why I prefer the ST novels to the tv shows you can be creative on paper, there is no makeup budget.

 

[KelisThePoet]

A big part of being a Starfleet officers is that the officers are diplomats of a sort, schooled in the right language. Chekov doesn't have his allegedly provincial background to really hide behind here.

I can think of many occasions besides this one of Kirk and his crew not coming across like trained diplomats at all. And knowing Chekhov, his next claim was probably going to be that Russia inspired the Declaration of Independence.

 

[Vandervecken]

Are the Klingons really racist? They are emphatically devoted to the Klingon way, but do they express the prejudice that their way is only available to those who share their biological race? I'm not being rhetorical with these questions. I may be forgetting clear examples of Klingon racism. But the only instance that comes to my mind of a Klingon expressing racial/species pride is Kor in "Errand of Mercy" suggesting that his species has an aggressive virtue the Organians lack, making him a tiger among sheep. And in that instance, Kor markedly shares the distinction with Kirk as a human; so while he may be demonstrating a racist/species-ist prejudice against Organians, it's not a species-ist prejudice exclusively for Klingons.

There is of course the fact that we don't see any non-Klingons in the Empire, but we don't see many non-humans in the Federation. In both cases, budgetary factors are at play, as well as a desire to make the stories legible by clearly marking who's who.

Worf says to Riker that the Borg have neither honor nor courage in BOBW. I am pretty sure he meant it as an insult of sorts, but on the other hand, I am sure a high-functioning Borg would acknowledge the plain truth of the statement with an "honor and courage are irrelevant" response, so I don't know if this counts.

On the other hand, this--from Birthright--is pretty openly racist:

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

 

[Paradise City]

I can think of many occasions besides this one of Kirk and his crew not coming across like trained diplomats at all. And knowing Chekhov, his next claim was probably going to be that Russia inspired the Declaration of Independence.

It's a diplomatic function, these guys should be someway in diplomatic mode. I get it they are hardened space veterans untidy around the edges. They should be better though than popping out forgotten terms like "inalienable human rights" at a sensitive diplomatic dinner with a twitchy adversary.

That's my view. If you think it was all good in the writing, that's cool. But I'm not persuaded.

 

[Nyotarules]

It's a diplomatic function, these guys should be someway in diplomatic mode. I get it they are hardened space veterans untidy around the edges. They should be better though than popping out forgotten terms like "inalienable human rights" at a sensitive diplomatic dinner with a twitchy adversary.

That's my view. If you think it was all good in the writing, that's cool. But I'm not persuaded.

ITA, Chekov is no longer the young inexperienced Ensign of TOS it was a crass thing to say.. he put his foot in his mouth. Or we can blame the Romulan ale

 

[KelisThePoet]

One doesn't have to be an inexperienced ensign to speak that way. Chekhov has a habit of making some silly, potentially insensitive comments throughout the movies, and he's not entirely alone. "You want to know something, Spock. Everybody's human."

From a Season 1 episode like "A Taste of Armageddon," to his protestations in Star Trek IV that a full ambassador would be better equipped to receive Gorkon, Kirk makes clear that he and his crew are not ambassadors and diplomats.

 

[KelisThePoet]

Worf says to Riker that the Borg have neither honor nor courage in BOBW. I am pretty sure he meant it as an insult of sorts, but on the other hand, I am sure a high-functioning Borg would acknowledge the plain truth of the statement with an "honor and courage are irrelevant" response, so I don't know if this counts.

On the other hand, this--from Redemption--is pretty openly racist

I can't play the video clip, so I don't know what it's about. I don't think the comment about the Borg is racist at all, since the Borg are not a species or a race. They're not even a culture that Worf can be accused of stereotyping, because their "culture" doesn't contain individuals who negotiate its norms, but drones compelled to carry out its uniform objectives. So Worf is just reacting to the behavior that has in fact been programmed into all Borg drones.

 

[Vandervecken]

I can't play the video clip, so I don't know what it's about. I don't think the comment about the Borg is racist at all, since the Borg are not a species or a race. They're not even a culture that Worf can be accused of stereotyping, because their "culture" doesn't contain individuals who negotiate its norms, but drones compelled to carry out its uniform objectives. So Worf is just reacting to the behavior that has in fact been programmed into all Borg drones.

I agree with you in part. I don't agree simply because the Borg are a collective. I don't see individuality as a prerequiisite for either being racist or an object of racism. I do agree because the Borg are, truly, without courage, and without honor--and they are without fear, and without love, and without hate, and pretty much everything else. So it's no racism to describe them that way, that is exactly what they are.




I mistakenly had this from Redemption, I meant Birthright. This is the transcript of the clip:


BA'EL: This Kahless, did he ever take a mate?
WORF: That is another story.
BA'EL: Tell me.
(Worf strokes her hair, and discovers that she has pointed ears)
WORF: You are Romulan.
BA'EL: Tokath is my father. I thought you knew that.
WORF: How could your mother mate with a Romulan?
BA'EL: Why shouldn't she?
WORF: It is an obscenity.
BA'EL: What are you saying? They love each other.
WORF: Romulans are treacherous, deceitful. They are without honour.
BA'EL: My father is a good man. He is kind, and generous. There is nothing dishonourable about him.
WORF: He took part in a cowardly attack at Khitomer. Thousands of Klingons were massacred, many of them women and children.
BA'EL: I don't know what you're talking about. My father came here to escape the wars. He would never kill anybody.
WORF: Ask him. Ask your mother. Tell them you want to know the truth.


In the clip, Worf recoils in disgust from Ba'el's ears--not because they are especially hideous, but simply because they are Romulan. And he considers her parentage an obscenity--as he says--and thus her as well, just because of her birth.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

I've seen a few threads with a similar title lately. "Is XX Racist?" "Is YY Racist?""

The answer is no.

If people are running around looking for something to label as "-ist" the problem is not with the perceived "-ism, " it's with that person. The obsession with "-isms" -- in my view -- makes these people "Ism-ists." There is far too much "Ism-ism" and frankly it's time we did something about it.

I'm calling for a universal ban on "Ism-ism" and I hope you'll join me in my cause. Donations will be accepted at the Anti-Ism-ism website: www.ism-ism_sucks.com.

Thank you for your support.

While racism remains the most powerful cancer to societies around the world, I can mildly agree that other kinds of "isms" have become the reactionary offensive move by some, usually in order to suppress any idea different than their own. They miss the hypocritical nature of such a mindset.

I stopped reading those quotes after the second one. they come off as somebody going out of their way to look for racism, which frankly, is really getting out of hand. People try too hard to be "offended" so much anymore that it's become a joke and tiresome.

Agreed. DS9--for all of its faults--cannot be labeled "racist" in the way alien cultures were developed. Few TV series or films create alien species that are as fleshed out as human beings. Some are so quick to be offended that they seem to forget the Star Trek franchise has always used alien cultures in a way to explore certain problems of the human condition--or illustrate how extremes can be the undoing of humanity. It was never "Look at us humans--we're the best, and the the rest of you are a bunch of inferior stereotypes". Not at all.

If there is any kind of prejudiced and/or hatred to be found among characters, its the one some ST fans love to skip over: Spock. Too many love to blast the McCoy character for being "racist" toward Spock or Vulcans in general, but over the course of TOS, Spock often made astoundingly derogatory comments on humankind--comments that if you simply exchange humans with any racial group, and viewers would have been offended out of their minds, and rightly so. However, Spock is often given a free pass because he was in the minority of the Enterprise crew, but that position in no way excuses his running condemnation of humans. Interesting how other chapters or series of ST history are painted with the "racist" label, but Spock is given a free pass.

 

[KelisThePoet]

I agree with you in part. I don't agree simply because the Borg are a collective. I don't see individuality as a prerequiisite for either being racist or an object of racism. I do agree because the Borg are, truly, without courage, and without honor--and they are without fear, and without love, and without hate, and pretty much everything else. So it's no racism to describe them that way, that is exactly what they are.

One could certainly exercise racism against a collective, though it would have to be a biologically racial collective or at least a collective perceived to be biologically defined, which the Borg clearly is not. But one could exercise prejudice against the Borg Collective and its members, and in fact we see many Star Trek characters do so.

My point about the Borg being a collective is that they uniformly share battle tactics and ethics in a way groups of individuals do not. So it's prejudiced (and specifically racist) to say that a Romulan cannot fight with honor, because some might. It's not prejudiced to say a Borg drone cannot fight with honor, because none can, so long as they're linked to the hive mind. As you say, stating that the Borg have no honor is simply stating a fact. But there are other ways to be prejudiced and hateful besides generalizing and stereotyping, and surely some people are prejudiced and hateful against the Borg Collective.

In the clip, Worf recoils in disgust from Ba'el's ears--not because they are especially hideous, but simply because they are Romulan. And he considers her parentage an obscenity--as he says--and thus her as well, just because of her birth.

Yes, now that you remind me, Worf and 24th-century Klingons generally have racist attitudes toward Romulans. I suppose we should distinguish between two kinds of racism that can go hand in hand or separately. There's one kind of racism that holds one's own race is superior to all others. I can't think of any instance of Klingons displaying that kind of racism. There's another kind of racism that holds a certain other race or number of races in contempt, as Kor does Organians, and as Worf does Romulans on a much more thoroughgoing level.

 

[Tosk]

I suppose we should distinguish between two kinds of racism that can go hand in hand or separately.

Why the need to distinguish? It's not as though one is "good racism" and the other bad. It all still adds up to considering your race superior to another.

Does than mean that "Klingons are racist"? Not at all. Only that some individuals may hold speciest views.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

One could certainly exercise racism against a collective, though it would have to be a biologically racial collective or at least a collective perceived to be biologically defined, which the Borg clearly is not. But one could exercise prejudice against the Borg Collective and its members, and in fact we see many Star Trek characters do so.

My point about the Borg being a collective is that they uniformly share battle tactics and ethics in a way groups of individuals do not. So it's prejudiced (and specifically racist) to say that a Romulan cannot fight with honor, because some might. It's not prejudiced to say a Borg drone cannot fight with honor, because none can, so long as they're linked to the hive mind. As you say, stating that the Borg have no honor is simply stating a fact. But there are other ways to be prejudiced and hateful besides generalizing and stereotyping, and surely some people are prejudiced and hateful against the Borg Collective.

Yes, now that you remind me, Worf and 24th-century Klingons generally have racist attitudes toward Romulans. I suppose we should distinguish between two kinds of racism that can go hand in hand or separately. There's one kind of racism that holds one's own race is superior to all others. I can't think of any instance of Klingons displaying that kind of racism. There's another kind of racism that holds a certain other race or number of races in contempt, as Kor does Organians, and as Worf does Romulans on a much more thoroughgoing level.

Also to the Ferengi and the Cardassians, as I recall.

 

[Nyotarules]

I agree with you in part. I don't agree simply because the Borg are a collective. I don't see individuality as a prerequiisite for either being racist or an object of racism. I do agree because the Borg are, truly, without courage, and without honor--and they are without fear, and without love, and without hate, and pretty much everything else. So it's no racism to describe them that way, that is exactly what they are.




I mistakenly had this from Redemption, I meant Birthright. This is the transcript of the clip:


BA'EL: This Kahless, did he ever take a mate?
WORF: That is another story.
BA'EL: Tell me.
(Worf strokes her hair, and discovers that she has pointed ears)
WORF: You are Romulan.
BA'EL: Tokath is my father. I thought you knew that.
WORF: How could your mother mate with a Romulan?
BA'EL: Why shouldn't she?
WORF: It is an obscenity.
BA'EL: What are you saying? They love each other.
WORF: Romulans are treacherous, deceitful. They are without honour.
BA'EL: My father is a good man. He is kind, and generous. There is nothing dishonourable about him.
WORF: He took part in a cowardly attack at Khitomer. Thousands of Klingons were massacred, many of them women and children.
BA'EL: I don't know what you're talking about. My father came here to escape the wars. He would never kill anybody.
WORF: Ask him. Ask your mother. Tell them you want to know the truth.


In the clip, Worf recoils in disgust from Ba'el's ears--not because they are especially hideous, but simply because they are Romulan. And he considers her parentage an obscenity--as he says--and thus her as well, just because of her birth.

Good example of Worf showing his prejudice, he does not even say 'you are half Klingon' he says 'you are Romulan,' I guess Klingons have their own 'one drop' rule

 

[Nyotarules]

Yes, now that you remind me, Worf and 24th-century Klingons generally have racist attitudes toward Romulans. I suppose we should distinguish between two kinds of racism that can go hand in hand or separately. There's one kind of racism that holds one's own race is superior to all others. I can't think of any instance of Klingons displaying that kind of racism. There's another kind of racism that holds a certain other race or number of races in contempt, as Kor does Organians, and as Worf does Romulans on a much more thoroughgoing level.

In the DS9 episode 'You are cordially invited' does not Jadzia have to pass some cultural test to be accepted into the House of Martok, when Worf protests Martok reminds him that she has to accept their ways since Klingons conquer, or something like that. Or am I recalling it incorrectly?

 

[Nyotarules]

If there is any kind of prejudiced and/or hatred to be found among characters, its the one some ST fans love to skip over: Spock. Too many love to blast the McCoy character for being "racist" toward Spock or Vulcans in general, but over the course of TOS, Spock often made astoundingly derogatory comments on humankind--comments that if you simply exchange humans with any racial group, and viewers would have been offended out of their minds, and rightly so. However, Spock is often given a free pass because he was in the minority of the Enterprise crew, but that position in no way excuses his running condemnation of humans. Interesting how other chapters or series of ST history are painted with the "racist" label, but Spock is given a free pass.

From what I can recall Spock's attitude is in response to McCoy's. I love the McCoy character but found his TOS racial barbs disturbing, maybe its hearing his words with that Southern 'ole boy' accent. I even cringe when I read it in novels even tho its completely in character. He does not just attack Spock's philosophy of logic (which is fair game) he attacks his physical appearance as well. The latter IMO makes him a racist.

 

[ihno]

I can understand from a writing/storytelling point of view that individucals of an alien spieces are all the same (more or less), even though it's a bit too much if they all wear the same clothes.

But I have always found the way the Vulcans were shown/presented or talked about in DS9 (season 6 and 7) was rather racist.

The crazy Vulcan that hated laughter and committed murder or the Vulcans in that Baseball episode, where in the end our beloved "Niners" ridiculed the Vulcan guy for having no emotions.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

The crazy Vulcan that hated laughter and committed murder or the Vulcans in that Baseball episode, where in the end our beloved "Niners" ridiculed the Vulcan guy for having no emotions.

Contradicting stereotypes is not racism. Indeed, showing that the people are diverse and have complex motivations betrays the Orientalism that informs the depictions of many ethnic groups, be they real (Chinese, Indians, Arabs) or fictional (Vulcans).