Poll Destination Star Trek Europe Convention 2016

[Admiral Bear]

The best way forward is to partner up with someone that isn't Joiner or connected to him - and I've seen a successful and passionate event promoter comment (I believe he was in attendance - by comments, he is far from impressed) on it that I'm sure would be interested in taking up the mantle.

I've not seen anything from him re DSTE, but I'm guessing you're talking about Lee Wallis or whatever his name is who runs EM Con. Deliberately oversold his first event which led to the chaos. I caught him out on Facebook a few weeks before the event when he was boasting about how many tickets he'd sold, and he started scurrying around like a rat in a maze. Personally, while I have little love for him, in terms of being able to put on a proper event with content, I'd give official Trek cons to Bryan Cooney, but I very much doubt he'd be interested. It's really not his bag. Plus he'd never get a CBS licence. Van Citters seems to be far too cosy with Joiner and Media 10.

Not everything can be fixed with a magic wand, but it stuns me that the same problems arise over and over again with the same company. Other organisations have had issues, but evolved with them.In contrast Showmasters just seems to get worse. The London events are rife with (justifiable) complaints. They get ignored, deleted and next year it's a repeat. No learning, no evolution - just the focus on the people happy to grin and bear it.

Joiner doesn't care. We all know it. He's a con artist. However it's pointless pointing this out to the masses, many of who were first timers at DSTE and who now wish they'd never gone near it. Many Star Trek fans in the UK are stupid. It's as simple as that. They won't do research, they throw large amounts of money at people like Joiner (10 years ago, it was Manny Patel, 20 years ago, it was Stargazer) despite others telling them not to, and they complain to Watchdog when they lose their money or don't get what they paid for. Joiner knows he can carry on ripping people off because he has a constant supply of new fresh meat. His customer base has an almost 100% turnover rate. People go for the first time and they don't ever go again. Rinse and repeat. He has no interest in retaining customers because that would make him less money. The gormless fresh meat will always hand over more of their cash than repeat customers.

I won't say Trek fans deserve better as thats a bit self serving

Perhaps you should be saying it.

 

[1001001]

Many Star Trek fans in the UK are stupid. It's as simple as that.

Is it?

 

[inflatabledalek]

Paying to go to an event run by people you hate and which you know you will hate and you've spent months loudly telling everyone they shouldn't go to stupid perhaps?

 

[Smoked Salmon]

They could be busy in the UK, which happens to be the biggest market in the world for Star Trek outside of the US.

Actually I believe that Germany is these days.

He has no interest in retaining customers because that would make him less money.

That's an illogical statement. For someone saying so much about how to run good events you're making a key business error here. Happy customers are returning customers. Not only that but they spread good word of mouth, and both of these would be in addition to the gullible "no research" people you're talking about, who you are saying will go on face value and not read past reviews.

 

[Smoked Salmon]

I've seen a successful and passionate event promoter comment (I believe he was in attendance - by comments, he is far from impressed) on it that I'm sure would be interested in taking up the mantle.

Are we allowed to know why this is?

Not everything can be fixed with a magic wand, but it stuns me that the same problems arise over and over again with the same company. Other orginisations have had issues, but evolved with them.

My theory is that they make enough money from each event that they just don't care. If so I find it an ignorant approach and you'd still make more money from customers like me who would still be going but for their poor attitude. Nonetheless, perhaps they just won't give a shit until their profits take a serious dive.

One in particular began events local to me a few years back. Year one: Heavy queuing and overcrowding issues. Year two? They fixed it by reorganising the system, getting more hands on deck and booking more space. It didn't stop - the event constantly evolved in layout and orginisation to better meet the needs of the customers.

Who was that?

I won't say Trek fans deserve better as thats a bit self serving But the DSTE measure of success seems to be "Look at the money we made!" - imagine how much money they could make now, and in the future, if people went to the event and actually enjoyed themselves?

It's not about Trek fans deserving better. Trek fans are punters like everyone else who goes to any of their shows. They deserve the same value for money and professional treatment as anyone else.

 

[Admiral Bear]

That's an illogical statement. For someone saying so much about how to run good events you're making a key business error here. Happy customers are returning customers. Not only that but they spread good word of mouth, and both of these would be in addition to the gullible "no research" people you're talking about, who you are saying will go on face value and not read past reviews.

I'm not the one making a key business error. I was just pointing out that Joiner has no interest in retaining his customer base. He's the one making, what under normal circumstances, is the error. However, because he has a constant supply of gullible teenagers, who then become gullible adults with money to throw at him, he can get away with it. It would take a huge amount of effort on his part to retain a worthwile proportion of the people who have been to one of his events, and sadly, he's come to the conclusion that that effort takes more money, business contacts, and industry goodwill (which he lost decades ago), than he has access to. It makes more sense for him financially to keep running cheap shit events under an "official" banner and aim them at the fresh meat market, than to run good quality events and get returning customers.

If you isolate DSTE, then it is about Trek fans deserving better. It was an officially licened CBS 50th anniversary Star Trek "convention". Of course people who go to any of Joiner's events deserve better than what most of them get. But don't say it's not about Trek fans deserving better because that just give Joiner and CBS ammunition.

 

[jamestyler]

I've not seen anything from him re DSTE, but I'm guessing you're talking about Lee Wallis or whatever his name is who runs EM Con.

I had no clue he was there! So no hah! The guy I'm thinking of has experience in mostly non SF type events & Conventions. I don't want to 'out' him though he has posted on a few places (including the DST page where his comments were removed in the cleansing!) but from what I've seen of his business practices and work ethic - as well as his commitment to his customers - thats the kind of guy I'd like to see take the reigns of this type of convention; customers and experience always come first - and in dealings my wife has had with him as a trader, he has been incredibly communicative and helpful - it's a rare value that a good few orginisations lack.

Are we allowed to know why this is?

Comments weren't specific, aside from a few funny jabs , so I'd be speculating. But compared to his (non sci fi!) events, the gap in quality and service were astounding.

Who was that?

MCM. I'm sure they're not perfect (in fact, I have criticised them on a few points of late) but aside from putting a huge amount of effort into the queuing system, it really struck me last month how they'd listened to complaints of people feeling cramped by delivering a more suitable - and far better spaced - layout.

It's not a major thing - but in comparison to the SM shows in the same rough area, MCM listened and took the comments on board while SM listened and just crammed in more stalls. Cosmetic changes, but it makes a world of difference being listened to and in return, being comfortable.

It's not about Trek fans deserving better. Trek fans are punters like everyone else who goes to any of their shows. They deserve the same value for money and professional treatment as anyone else.

Yep. Thats why I don't like saying "we deserve better!" - it's the 'special snowflake' bollocks. Consumers as a whole should be treated well, and in an event like this little things can make all the difference - even just openly saying "Look guys, something happened with the gaming villiage" and explaining it works miles better than just ignoring the fact it wasn't there as promised.

Obviously there are much larger things to worry about, but.... little touches can show you care about your customers, not your pockets.

 

[Smoked Salmon]

MCM. I'm sure they're not perfect (in fact, I have criticised them on a few points of late) but aside from putting a huge amount of effort into the queuing system, it really struck me last month how they'd listened to complaints of people feeling cramped by delivering a more suitable - and far better spaced - layout.

Haven't been to MCM in years. I remember back when they were just the London Expo. I remember they were very similar to Showmasters. Now you look at them and you have to say that the have well and truly advanced. Looking at their website, seems they get a lot more licensing deals and events that Showmasters, so perhaps part of that is born out of their learning and customer service.

 

[Admiral Bear]

Bryan Cooney has always seemed to have a better reputation and industry contacts that Joiner could ever hope to have, although his organisation has always been a bit hit and miss. His major advantage over Joiner is his ability to think on his feet and get big guests in at short notice, although this clearly comes with all the usual problems of getting customers to the event to see those guests and purchase higher priced autographs and photoshoots.

Back in the days of London Expo, I remember Larry Hagman going up on the guest page of the website at about 10pm the night before the event. Best visit to that website I ever made. Was going to the event anway, but at least I, unlike most people who turned up on the Saturday morning, knew he was going to be there. And he was one of the the most warm and likeable guests I've ever met at an event, probably in the top two with Ernest Borgnine.

Anyway, I digress. . .

 

[jamestyler]

Haven't been to MCM in years. I remember back when they were just the London Expo. I remember they were very similar to Showmasters. Now you look at them and you have to say that the have well and truly advanced. Looking at their website, seems they get a lot more licensing deals and events that Showmasters, so perhaps part of that is born out of their learning and customer service.

The difference is night and day. I can't speak for everywhere - but here in Glasgow, Showmasters has a very cramped, basic (and obvious) set up whilst MCM is spacious, well laid out , lively and well dressed. It's a stylised affair built on atmosphere. Showmasters in Glasgow is like a trip to Aldi - they even punted the guests out of sight to fit in a maze of stalls :/

Going to MCM is very stylised here, it's the high end of the scale. Going to Showmasters (which is a hrribly placed venue) is honestly like walking through Aldi's discount isle.

 

[Admiral Bear]

To be quite honest, if Cooney started paying again to get guests instead of relying on production companies to give him promotional freebies for obscure genre shows that no one has ever heard of, let alone watched, he'd put Joiner out of business within a year. There are already rumours on Facebook that Joiner's skint.

 

[jamestyler]

To be quite honest, if Cooney started paying again to get guests instead of relying on production companies to give him promotional freebies for obscure genre shows that no one has ever heard of, let alone watched, he'd put Joiner out of business within a year. There are already rumours on Facebook that Joiner's skint.

Agreed on that front. Though I enjoy MCM a lot and the atmosphere is always tremendous, there's far too much YouTube and anime. It gets the younger generation in, I suppose. But SM has beaten then on the guest front in Glasgow :/

As for Joiner - the rumours been going a while, but it wouldn't surprise me. From dealings with him, there was a lot of boasting and too much panic when it came to the numbers. Honestly though, I think it's just a case of his boasting carrying more weight than his bank balance - he's just that kind of guy :/

 

[Admiral Bear]

As for Joiner - the rumours been going a while, but it wouldn't surprise me. From dealings with him, there was a lot of boasting and too much panic when it came to the numbers. Honestly though, I think it's just a case of his boasting carrying more weight than his bank balance - he's just that kind of guy :/

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.arts.sf.starwars.collecting.vintage/VLZiR-FLU-A

An interesting read of stuff posted about Joiner 17 years ago, much of it by people in the US.

 

[cultcross]

Agreed on that front. Though I enjoy MCM a lot and the atmosphere is always tremendous, there's far too much YouTube and anime. It gets the younger generation in, I suppose. But SM has beaten then on the guest front in Glasgow :/

Their London event this month is lacking in the guest front too - they've added Jamie Bamber but otherwise it's some minor GoT cast, someone from The Flash TV show I didn't even realise was available in the UK and a bunch of YouTubers. Money grabbing as Showmasters are, they get the guests.
I'll be going along to MCM though as I hear great things about them and the atmosphere, cosplay, and general organisation. So maybe the lack of guests won't be such a big deal if the rest of it is right.

 

[jamestyler]

Their London event this month is lacking in the guest front too - they've added Jamie Bamber but otherwise it's some minor GoT cast, someone from The Flash TV show I didn't even realise was available in the UK and a bunch of YouTubers. Money grabbing as Showmasters are, they get the guests.
I'll be going along to MCM though as I hear great things about them and the atmosphere, cosplay, and general organisation. So maybe the lack of guests won't be such a big deal if the rest of it is right.

It was Bamber and David Warner that stood out to me though I see they've got Emily Rose from Haven too - Warwick Davies and Peter Davidson are good ones too, but they do a good number of appearances which unfortunately makes them less of a special attraction. The RWBY cast should be a draw - particularly Lindsay Jones - and Troy Baker is a nice addition for diversity.

If anything MCM tend to have a good mix. Two of my favourite guests from the past were Mass Effect voice actors (and other stuff, but I'm a ME fan ) who were tremendous fun. But there haven't been that many thats tempted us.

But yeah - the organisation as a whole is amazing. I can't speak for all venues, but there's far more effort into how it's presented and how things are done which has a very nice ripple effect. It feels like an event, not a marketplace, so instead of going to rush through a bunch of tasks, you end up going for a good time and pick up the bonuses (guests, gaming, stalls, etc) along the way.

London MCM is on my to do list - but with kids, it's a logistical nightmare :/

 

[cultcross]

The thing that's really beginning to bug me about convention guests is the panel talk, particularly the Q&A variety. Questions from the audience is simply the most boring approach to a talk ever. Good questions are so rare, they all seem to fall into three categories: boring (What was your favourite moment?!), so nerdy you could cry (I refer the panel to episode 7F643 scene 4...), or statements masquerading as questions (don't you think Quark is just so awesome?!). The best guests can turn rubbish questions into interesting answers, but some can't expand on the limited material they're given and the exercise becomes excruciating. One of my favourite things about DSTE actually was that, for the most part, the actors were experienced enough to turn 'What was your favourite moment' into something worth listening to. Compared with the skull crushingly awkward Game of Thrones panel at LFCC, they were lovely to watch.
I'd much rather hear an on stage interview by the host or even a straight up talk from the panel members on their experiences, but it seems every talk turns into Q&A after the first 5 minutes.

 

[jamestyler]

I rarely do talks for that reason :/ There have been some I've taken chances on that have paid off (Courtney Taylor & DC Douglas were brilliant together) and Sylvester McCoy knows how to tell a good story, but overall.... fan questions annoy me as full on Q&As become a case of "You could have googled that."

One thing I enjoy with MCM is that they have the bigger talks in a separate theatre, which becomes a Q&A, while others are formally interviewed on a much smaller public stage next to the guest area with those interviews being played on screens throughout the day.

But I'm still not sure why they don't put this stuff on their YouTube channel - the Chris Barrie interview I saw live (well, half live, half on a screen later) would gain more attention than their current content.

One of the big issues is that talks etc are booked without any real idea as to why they're booked. For many there's no real direction or ideas, so they turn into Q&A's as it's easier content to direct (and creatively easier for the organiser). I think thats why workshops are a popular option right now - get in a prop maker, or someone who makes costumes, or make up artist and you have yourself a subject to talk about and know what you're getting going in (as long as they're good artists) instead of a shrug and a head scratch.

 

[Admiral Bear]

Juding by the complaints, the main issue witht DSTE stage talks were:

A. The sound system was so poor that no one past 5 rows back could hear what was being said.

B. The microphones didn't work on a lot of the time, leaving no one able to hear anything.

C. Aside from the two Daxes talk, which I wanted to see, but couldn't get near because of over crowding, none of the guests appeared to have been briefed about the topic of the talk, had prepared nothing, and in many cases, guests like Pierpoint, Hackett, Lloyd, and Worden, all of whom had no right being at the event, unsurprisingly had nothing to say about Star Trek on stage.

 

[Khan 2.0]

FB posts now quite positive making me wish id gone!

 

[1001001]

C. Aside from the two Daxes talk, which I wanted to see, but couldn't get near because of over crowding...

Wait a minute.

You actually went to this event??