The Original Trilogy Constructive Criticism Thread

[Reverend]

^That has never been referenced once, even in passing, in *any* story ever told in the Star Wars universe? Sure, that's a totally credible explanation.

Again, the closest you can get to a logical explanation is that the three systems are close enough together and they huffed it at sublight for a few weeks. Incidentally, this happens to add credence to Yoda having enough time to train Luke in even the very basics of being a Jedi.

 

[Set Harth]

No, it's pretty clear that they couldn't jump at all. Threepio specifically says "I noticed earlier that the hyperdrive motivator has been damaged. It's impossible to go to light-speed!" If a short jump of any kind was an option, they would have done so way before now.

The point is that they could have partially fixed it after that. We even see them attempting to begin the process of doing repairs.

 

[fireproof78]

No, it's pretty clear that they couldn't jump at all. Threepio specifically says "I noticed earlier that the hyperdrive motivator has been damaged. It's impossible to go to light-speed!" If a short jump of any kind was an option, they would have done so way before now.

The closest you can get to making this sort of work is if Anoat, Hoth and Bespin are *very* close to one another. Like a few light days. Not too far out of the realms of possibility if they're very small stars, like red dwarves or the like (might also account for the massive asteroid activity.) But Hoth being the 6th planet but still in the habitable zone makes that look unlikely.
Also says Bespin is "...pretty far, but I think we can make it." which also seems to go against the notion that they're relatively close.
It would also seem a bit odd if the Rebels set up a secret base on Hoth without knowing there's an independent tibanna gas mining operation just two systems over.


The simple fact is that Star Wars is sci-fi fantasy and while it would be nice if this kind of thing made sense, sometimes they just fudge it. As such no explanation is going to be perfect.

Well, the Rebels could be counting on the Empire overlooking Hoth system due to the fact that there is a small mining operation, and expect to be treated like smugglers or miners or something. In fact, Ozzel was about to dismiss the Hoth base as such.

Yes, it's fantasy and no explanation will be air tight. But, I don't think discounting the Rebels building so close to another inhabited system.

 

[Reverend]

Well, the Rebels could be counting on the Empire overlooking Hoth system due to the fact that there is a small mining operation, and expect to be treated like smugglers or miners or something. In fact, Ozzel was about to dismiss the Hoth base as such.

Yes, it's fantasy and no explanation will be air tight. But, I don't think discounting the Rebels building so close to another inhabited system.

Slight problem with that: Leia explicitly had no idea and she was in charge of that base.

 

[Ithekro]

She did ask where they were, so perhaps the Empire had jumped someplace else and they were no longer so close to the Hoth system.

 

[fireproof78]

Slight problem with that: Leia explicitly had no idea and she was in charge of that base.

I can't remember but I don't think Han mentioned the name of the system to her. Beyond that, we don't know Leia's familiarity with the star systems.

 

[Ithekro]

Leia asked were they are. Han said Anoat System. Leia said there wasn't much there. Than Han said Lando, which confused Leia, "Lando System?" Han eventually mentions Bespin was pretty far. Leia reads that it is a mining colony.

 

[Reverend]

She did ask where they were, so perhaps the Empire had jumped someplace else and they were no longer so close to the Hoth system.

I considered that when I wrote my last post, but upon checking the scene that simply doesn't track. The Avenger stayed in the same locale until the rest of the fleet showed up to search the immediate area. When that came up dry Vader ordered the fleet to deploy to search every destination along their last known trajectory on the theory they might have jumped to hyperspace.
The fleet then broke up and began jumping out, with the Avenger leaving last which of course is when the Falcon detached.

There's really no reason for then to have jumped anywhere in the interim. Indeed, it would have been detrimental to their search.

I can't remember but I don't think Han mentioned the name of the system to her. Beyond that, we don't know Leia's familiarity with the star systems.

Not explicitly, but it's implicit in her dialogue and demeanour.

Leia asked were they are. Han said Anoat System. Leia said there wasn't much there. Than Han said Lando, which confused Leia, "Lando System?" Han eventually mentions Bespin was pretty far. Leia reads that it is a mining colony.

She also quizzed Lando on the operation where they get there "so you're part of the Mining Guild then?" This is all information she should know if she was already aware of Cloud City.

 

[suarezguy]

I never liked the development that Leia was Luke's sister, that seemed like a really cheap way of resolving the love triangle situation rather than the more ordinary and honest way of just admitting that Leia liked and certainly was a lot more attracted to Han (and Han was overall a lot more attracted to Leia than Luke was so it shouldn't have been much of a problem in the first place).
Plus in A New Hope it seems like Leia is at least a few years older than Luke.

 

[Reverend]

I don't think the "love triangle" was really a factor, especially since It was only barely hinted at in ANH and was all but excised after the first draft of tESB. The only remnant of it in episodes 5 & 6 is the kiss in medbay which was about Leia blatantly making Han jealous with Luke knowingly playing along and that one line towards the end of RotJ which was more about resolving Han's insecurity and emotional immaturity than any non-existent "love triangle".

Now I would agree that the *way* they revealed it fell more than a little flat. I've heard accounts of people showing friends & family the film for the first time in the "4-5-1-2-3-6" order specifically because it's much better to find out Luke has a twin and it's Leia in Padme's death scene than Obi-Wan just telling him flat out on Dagobah.

 

[Ithekro]

Plus in A New Hope it seems like Leia is at least a few years older than Luke.

Which is interesting considering that Mark Hamill is older than Carrie Fisher.

 

[Reverend]

I think that just speaks to how different their backgrounds are. Luke's a farmboy who spends most of his time dreaming of not being bored to death with vaporator repairs, looking at sunsets and occasionally joyriding his airspeeder (animal murder optional.)

Leia on the other hand was raised a princess and has had duties and responsibilities since a very young age, is in the midst of a rebellion and has people counting on her.

So I'd say a slight disparity in their maturity is about right and that's before you even factor in that girls do generally mature faster that boys in adolescence.

 

[LJones41]

Slight problem with that: Leia explicitly had no idea and she was in charge of that base.

Since when? General Rieekan was in charge of Echo Base, not Leia. She was just a visiting politician.


Speaking of the romance featured in "Empire Strikes Back", I have another problem. I really wish Lucas had shown how Leia and Han became romantically interested in each other in the first place. When I first saw the movie, I was surprised to see them exchanging longing glances at each other, before engaging in their usual repartee. In fact, one didn't find out how they became interested in one another, until the publication of some EU novel, some 30 years after the movie.

And why is it that when it comes to the writing problems in the Original Trilogy, a lot of fans tend to dismiss them, claiming that the movies are "fictional" or "fantasy" and do not require any explanation? I find that hypocritical.

 

[Reverend]

Since when? General Rieekan was in charge of Echo Base, not Leia. She was just a visiting politician.

Nope.

Speaking of the romance featured in "Empire Strikes Back", I have another problem. I really wish Lucas had shown how Leia and Han became romantically interested in each other in the first place. When I first saw the movie, I was surprised to see them exchanging longing glances at each other, before engaging in their usual repartee. In fact, one didn't find out how they became interested in one another, until the publication of some EU novel, some 30 years after the movie..

It's a three to four year gap between ANH and tESB. Given how they were bickering right from the off and carrying on like an old married couple by Hoth I don't think the patently obvious really needed explaining.

And why is it that when it comes to the writing problems in the Original Trilogy, a lot of fans tend to dismiss them, claiming that the movies are "fictional" or "fantasy" and do not require any explanation? I find that hypocritical.

How does hypocrisy figure into suspension of disbelief exactly? What double standard do you think you see here?

 

[suarezguy]

I actually initially thought, and I think a lot of casual fans think, that Empire takes place only a few months after ANH (or at most a year rather than the official 3 years). But in ANH there were already sparks and even some admiration between Han and Leia and the relationship in the beginning of Empire is still more interest than longing so it doesn't feel like there was a big gap or lack of explanation in their relationship between the films.

 

[LJones41]

Nope.

Unless Echo Base had no real military commander in charge at the time, which it did, I find the idea of Leia, a politician, being in charge of Echo base ludicrous beyond belief. A politician in charge of military decision, when there is a fully qualified commander on site around the same time? I realize that "STAR WARS" is a fantasy/sci-fi saga. But this is really illogical . . . even for fiction.

However, if you want to believe that it is possible in this movie, be my guest.

But in ANH there were already sparks and even some admiration between Han and Leia and the relationship in the beginning of Empire is still more interest than longing so it doesn't feel like there was a big gap or lack of explanation in their relationship between the films.

You mean . . . with them irritating each other and Han expressing a half-hearted interest in Leia, because she was good looking and snarky? That was the beginning? Luke and Leia had more spark at that point. And when did Leia begin showing any interest in Han before "Empire Strikes Back"?

 

[Ithekro]

Leia was overseeing operations at Hoth. I don't think her full capacity on that base (nor her rank) have been fully established, but see seems to be far more than "just" a political figure in the Rebellion , since she is active on missions and in combat as well as giving orders that people follow.

 

[fireproof78]

Unless Echo Base had no real military commander in charge at the time, which it did, I find the idea of Leia, a politician, being in charge of Echo base ludicrous beyond belief. A politician in charge of military decision, when there is a fully qualified commander on site around the same time? I realize that "STAR WARS" is a fantasy/sci-fi saga. But this is really illogical . . . even for fiction.

However, if you want to believe that it is possible in this movie, be my guest.

The American military operates with civilians overseeing it all.

You mean . . . with them irritating each other and Han expressing a half-hearted interest in Leia, because she was good looking and snarky? That was the beginning? Luke and Leia had more spark at that point. And when did Leia begin showing any interest in Han before "Empire Strikes Back"?

Snarkiness can be the beginning of a relationship. I have seen people start out as hostile and irritable towards each other only to develop and understanding and great affection for each other that turns in to love. Often the short hand of that is presented in stories like fairy tales where people start out disliking or antagonistic towards each other only to become romantically interested or involved by the end of the story.

Luke and Leia may have had more spark, but their paths took them different directions. That's not good or bad-that's just life. It feels like real life, where, in another story, Luke and Leia end up together because Leia isn't his sister and is actually Bail's daughter.

Life is full of twists and turns like that.

 

[LJones41]

But is she a political officer, or is she in command of the region's military, thus making Rieekan under her command.

Leia is a political "leader", a politician. She is not a political "officer". She is one of the leaders of the Rebel Alliance. Rieekan is not only one of the founders and leaders of the Rebel Alliance, he was definitely one of the Alliance's military leaders and the commander of Echo Base.

 

[Reverend]

Leia is a political "leader", a politician. She is not a political "officer". She is one of the leaders of the Rebel Alliance. Rieekan is not only one of the founders and leaders of the Rebel Alliance, he was definitely one of the Alliance's military leaders and the commander of Echo Base.

You seem determined to cling to the notion that that Rebel Alliance was a regular military. It most certainly was not. It was an insurgency. A rag-tad assembly of many, many groups.

Such organisations don't have the luxury of a rigid hierarchy because everyone there is there because they believe in the cause and are donating their time and even their lives freely. That is just as true for the troopers, deck crews and pilots as it is for the likes of Leia, Mon, Dodanna and Reeiken. It's not a job, it's a calling.

People like Mon, Bail and Leia are in charge simply because they're the ones able to make it all happen. To co-ordinate all these groups, secure resources and intelligence to keep them alive and the leadership to carry them forward. Why them? Because they where the ones who where in a position to do something and stepped up.

Go read a history book. It's full of people just like this. They've been Generals, Senators, merchants, peasant girls and slaves. People didn't follow them, didn't fight and die for them because they had seniority. They did it because they believed in them.