Excessive Criticism of "STAR TREK VOYAGER"

[Guy Gardener]

What we see as physical beings that look like the actors playing the Q characters are not really there, its all abstract avatars and stuff, or at least that's how it was explained during all that civil war claptrap.

How can the Borg assimilate or absorb a remote analogous construct that isn't really there?

 

[Thomas Eugene]

What we see as physical beings that look like the actors playing the Q characters are not really there, its all abstract avatars and stuff, or at least that's how it was explained during all that civil war claptrap.

How can the Borg assimilate or absorb a remote analogous construct that isn't really there?

I don't know.
All I'm saying is that this is what the Borg-Queen-turned-Janeway says to the female Q. BTW, you can actually "see" the scepticism on the female Q's face.
What is even more ironic is the fact that later our Borg Queen Janeway will become a Q herself.

 

[Guy Gardener]

It was still the 20th century when I stopped reading Voyager Novels.

So sometimes you Bookees flop a scary metaphorical rod of meat on the table, that I'm never expecting to clap so loud.

Q and Q are both omnitemporal, omnipresent and omniscient, so Q could cite child abuse that Q tried to get jiggy with herself as a child, and more so Q was there watching Q when she was still Janeway allowing Q to get handsy.

That's a little messed up.

 

[locutus101]

What we see as physical beings that look like the actors playing the Q characters are not really there, its all abstract avatars and stuff, or at least that's how it was explained during all that civil war claptrap.

How can the Borg assimilate or absorb a remote analogous construct that isn't really there?

Plus the borg are really not that smart. They let Riker and his team get Picard back and then use him to make the cube self-destruct. That's really stupid. Doesn't seem likely that these bozos could assimilate anything superior. They would probably have a hard time assimilating complex carbohydrates.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Borg = Taylor Swift and the Rolling Stones.

Assimilation = Partying.



The Borg (up till a point in time where the Queen started acting like an individual) thought that everyone thought that they were awesome, so deep down, everyone in the universe wanted to be Borg, so truthfully (from their honest perspective) they were not building a slave race, they were superSanta Claus granting the fondest wishes of whosoever they encounter to finally at last be assimilated.

 

[locutus101]

Borg = Taylor Swift and the Rolling Stones.

Assimilation = Partying.



The Borg (up till a point in time where the Queen started acting like an individual) thought that everyone thought that they were awesome, so deep down, everyone in the universe wanted to be Borg, so truthfully (from their honest perspective) they were not building a slave race, they were superSanta Claus granting the fondest wishes of whosoever they encounter to finally at last be assimilated.

That only goes to show how stupid they were. They never realized that they were scarier than shit.

 

[Guy Gardener]

1. Every new mind that joined the collective liked it, and realized that everyone who would eventually soon join the collective would quickly come to love being Borg too. There is no argument against how awesome it is to be Borg, and there never will be (once you are Borg, for so long as you are Borg).

OR...

2. Sabotage. The new minds in the collective convince the old minds in the collective that they are hip and with it, and any resistance is just "playing hard to get" so there is no reason to turn the peace corps version of the Borg, as it currently stands, spreading peace across the galaxy into some sort of effective/ruthless war machine.

 

[locutus101]

1. Every new mind that joined the collective liked it, and realized that everyone who would eventually soon join the collective would quickly come to love being Borg too. There is no argument against how awesome it is to be Borg, and there never will be (once you are Borg, for so long as you are Borg).

OR...

2. Sabotage. The new minds in the collective convince the old minds in the collective that they are hip and with it, and any resistance is just "playing hard to get" so there is no reason to turn the peace corps version of the Borg, as it currently stands, spreading peace across the galaxy into some sort of effective/ruthless war machine.

But the borg have evolved. At first they were very aggressive and would bombard things to total devastation but then they started being more defensive than aggressive they would only destroy the ones who resisted assimilation.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The Borg do not evolve.

Strictly speaking.

The Borg is not a species per say, it's just one dude.

How that dude (the entire Borg Collective) "changes" over the course of it's life story, is from adding biological and technological distinctiveness to it's character, the hivemind, rather than how evolution works, where inferior aspects (stupid children who can't breed quickly) submit in favour of superior aspects (fuck happy mass-breeders who get a lot and don't use protection.) allowing for the heritage of the mass breeders to be passed on to another generation and the unf###able to be forgotten, which is in one sense random and in another totally/reliably junks the undesirables.

There is an unpredictable correlation between changes to the Borg's character from assimilating a new species, and solving problems facing the Borg that need solving, and accessing the good vs bad that came from achieving some sense of victory. The Borg may chose to assimilate one species because it has obvious desirable, and maybe even necessary qualities, but what about all the sediment and scum? The Borg must be constantly having to stomach a mass of undesirable skills and notions that they were not expecting just because they... Assimilating a species is like buying a second hand car from a dodgy car yard full of lemons.

In theory the Collective fundamentally changes every time it adds billions of souls called a species/civilization to it's think space, but there are already so many voices in there in consensus, trillion-trillions, that adding a billion voices of dissent at a time does not put a chink in their resolve, before any new billion people added to the Collective are swayed to the party-line.

Semantics aside, it's possible that Borg can't change how they think through assimilation, or evolve how they think via trial and error.

 

[locutus101]

The Borg do not evolve.

Strictly speaking.

The Borg is not a species per say, it's just one dude.

How that dude (the entire Borg Collective) "changes" over the course of it's life story, is from adding biological and technological distinctiveness to it's character, the hivemind, rather than how evolution works, where inferior aspects (stupid children who can't breed quickly) submit in favour of superior aspects (fuck happy mass-breeders who get a lot and don't use protection.) allowing for the heritage of the mass breeders to be passed on to another generation and the unf###able to be forgotten, which is in one sense random and in another totally/reliably junks the undesirables.

There is an unpredictable correlation between changes to the Borg's character from assimilating a new species, and solving problems facing the Borg that need solving, and accessing the good vs bad that came from achieving some sense of victory. The Borg may chose to assimilate one species because it has obvious desirable, and maybe even necessary qualities, but what about all the sediment and scum? The Borg must be constantly having to stomach a mass of undesirable skills and notions that they were not expecting just because they... Assimilating a species is like buying a second hand car from a dodgy car yard full of lemons.

In theory the Collective fundamentally changes every time it adds billions of souls called a species/civilization to it's think space, but there are already so many voices in there in consensus, trillion-trillions, that adding a billion voices of dissent at a time does not put a chink in their resolve, before any new billion people added to the Collective are swayed to the party-line.

Semantics aside, it's possible that Borg can't change how they think through assimilation, or evolve how they think via trial and error.

I wasn't talking about Darwin's theory of evolution, I was speaking metaphorically, the way a person evolves throughout their career for example.

 

[fireproof78]

You get what I mean. What would've happened if the Borg attacked a superior force (which we know exist)? Wouldn't they get obliterated?

No, I actually don't get what you mean. If it's a matter of power versus power, there are several beings out there that could obliterate the Borg (Species 8472, the Q, the Prophets, the Pah Wraiths, Trelane, Charlie X's parents, among others.

So, no, I don't see your point. If the point is that their are species more powerful than the Q, then I would say that's par for the course in Star Trek. The Borg are unique in their malevolence. They are pursuing their view of perfection (apparently personified in the Omega molecule) and taking everyone with them. Compare that to the Q and other noncorporeals, who view the physical plane as beneath them.

 

[locutus101]

No, I actually don't get what you mean. If it's a matter of power versus power, there are several beings out there that could obliterate the Borg (Species 8472, the Q, the Prophets, the Pah Wraiths, Trelane, Charlie X's parents, among others.

So, no, I don't see your point. If the point is that their are species more powerful than the Q, then I would say that's par for the course in Star Trek. The Borg are unique in their malevolence. They are pursuing their view of perfection (apparently personified in the Omega molecule) and taking everyone with them. Compare that to the Q and other noncorporeals, who view the physical plane as beneath them.

The Qs are a pain in the butt but they mostly let the other species alone. We don't see Q devastate entire planets or anything like that.

 

[Anwar]

So, no, I don't see your point.

That these complaints over the Vidiians or any other VOY alien species can just as easily be applied to aliens like the Borg. They shouldn't be seen as some huge threat when if done "realistically" they'd have been obliterated by someone stronger long ago.

 

[locutus101]

That these complaints over the Vidiians or any other VOY alien species can just as easily be applied to aliens like the Borg. They shouldn't be seen as some huge threat when if done "realistically" they'd have been obliterated by someone stronger long ago.

"Realistically" the borg would have been seen by the rest of the galaxy like some kind of deadly disease. Sooner or later the most powerful of them would have united their forces to obliterate this cancer once and for all.

 

[Anwar]

"Realistically" the borg would have been seen by the rest of the galaxy like some kind of deadly disease. Sooner or later the most powerful of them would have united their forces to obliterate this cancer once and for all.

Exactly, so why is it okay for the Borg to be spared this criticism but the Vidiians can't?

 

[locutus101]

Exactly, so why is it okay for the Borg to be spared this criticism but the Vidiians can't?

Point well taken.

 

[fireproof78]

Exactly, so why is it okay for the Borg to be spared this criticism but the Vidiians can't?

Wasn't aware this was an issue. Personally, I think the Vidiians were OK, and actually got some ok episodes. The way Janeway handled them was probably the more ridiculous point.

So, I'm probably still missing the point, because, to me, they are handled just fine. They are a threat, not in a huge, mega, Borg way, but a threat in a pirate way.

 

[Dee1891]

One of the main plot points of the show was supposed to be Maquis and Starfleet crews being forced to work together. Would have been a fantastic source of drama. They quickly brushed that whole idea under the rug in the very first episode.

Actually, the conflict between the Maquis and Starfleet had popped up a few more times during Season One.

Wasn't aware this was an issue. Personally, I think the Vidiians were OK, and actually got some ok episodes. The way Janeway handled them was probably the more ridiculous point.

How was Janeway's handling of the Vidiians a problem?

 

[Sim]

VOY was the one Star Trek series I didn't really like for a long time, but my feelings have somewhat mellowed with some distance.

When it was new, I was just disappointed. Until then, every new Star Trek series had taken a step forward, when it comes to complexity of the storytelling. TNG had more character development than TOS, and at least regular follow up episodes with a kind of arc ... like the yearly Klingon Empire/Worf centered episodes, Data's journey towards humanity and so on. DS9 then went even further, presented even deeper character development, and more serialized elements.

But VOY was a step back. Things that happen in an episode have usually even fewer consequences for future episodes than in TNG. And they gave up the TNG paradigm that every episode should present a character arc, but they made many shallow mere "action" episodes.

I remember I was still hopeful about VOY until the middle of season 2. I thought for the first two seasons, the show isn't bad, compared to TNG and DS9 -- those shows kicked off with season 3. So I assumed the same would happen with VOY. It didn't. Instead, pure trash episodes became more common in VOY's 2nd half of season 2, like "Treshhold" or the Kazon stuff.

Also, the characters didn't "click" with me, like on the previous shows. I found most of them bland or even annoying. I felt Neelix was the Jar Jar Binks of the Star Trek universe, a character you have a hard time appreciating when you're older than 12.

But 25 years and 5 Star Trek shows later? VOY still isn't among my favorites, but the disappointment has faded and I find many episodes decently entertaining. It also helps that I like DSC even less. Compared to DSC, VOY at least evokes some nostalgia.

 

[Oddish]

Might as well drop my two slips before the necro-post hammer drops...

Voyager is what you get when you take a proven franchise (Star Trek), a wonderful cast, and an intriguing premise... then put all this potential in the hands of showrunners who don't even know that an ensign is supposed to make lieutenant.

Sometimes you get good stuff. Sometimes you get mediocre stuff. And sometimes you get "Threshold".